1964 four door automatic project by remote

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66vairguy
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:23 pm

If you are going to keep the PG(automatic) then forget the 140HP engine and go with a latter 110HP engine. Mind you - there is nothing like looking at a 140HP engine - those four carbs, but the 110HP engine and the PG are such a great combination and easier to live with. When GM hooked up the 140HP engine to the PG the low RPM response was not as good as the 110HP. So GM installed a milder cam and used a special (140HP PG only) crank gear to increase the low RPM torque, yet provide some higher RPM power vs the 110HP. Of course this required making some PG changes to increase RPM upshift values. Bottom line IMHO - a 140HP PG setup offers very little improvement over the 110HP PG setup and a lot more complexity (carb linkage, dual mufflers, etc.), not to mention 140 HP heads require a deep seat rebuild to be reliable.

It's your car, do what you want, but one can end up with a lot of time and money involved, become frustrated and loose interest. Keep it simple, get it on the road, enjoy. Then later you can decide to do upgrades.

64powerglide
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:18 pm
Location: Kalamazoo Mi..

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 64powerglide » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:10 pm

:goodpost:
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips

Kalamazoo, Mi..

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:40 am

64powerglide wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:10 pm
:goodpost:
Agreed.

I'm sure I'll end up running the stock engine as long as it is reasonably reliable.

The 140 based engine swap would have a substantial increase in displacement. But maybe port FI is a better answer when doing a swap.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:19 pm

Ecklund wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:40 am
64powerglide wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:10 pm
:goodpost:
Agreed.

I'm sure I'll end up running the stock engine as long as it is reasonably reliable.

The 140 based engine swap would have a substantial increase in displacement. But maybe port FI is a better answer when doing a swap.
The 140HP engine has the same displacement as the 110HP engine. Actually ALL 64 model year engines had the larger displacement, but in 65 they widened the cylinder top flange and the corresponding head opening to allow for more gasket sealing area.

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:49 pm

66vairguy wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:19 pm
Ecklund wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:40 am
64powerglide wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:10 pm
:goodpost:
Agreed.

I'm sure I'll end up running the stock engine as long as it is reasonably reliable.

The 140 based engine swap would have a substantial increase in displacement. But maybe port FI is a better answer when doing a swap.
The 140HP engine has the same displacement as the 110HP engine. Actually ALL 64 model year engines had the larger displacement, but in 65 they widened the cylinder top flange and the corresponding head opening to allow for more gasket sealing area.
Apologies for my bad writing. I meant a 140 might be a good candidate for an 3.1l/3.3l upgrade and then for an engine swap.

Very similar engine operation and characteristics just a nice shot of low and mid range torque.

Leave the FI out for now. Even the stock 2.7l with the twin carbs might be a reasonable candidate for the displacement upgrade. A 3.08 diff might be a good addition with more torque.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:53 am

Some additional pics of the '64's 'found' condition.
Attachments
Corvair b.jpg
Corvair d.jpg
Corvair e.jpg
Corvair f.jpg
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:59 am

And a few more
Attachments
Corvair h.jpg
Corvair i.jpg
Corvair j.jpg
Corvair k.jpg
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:54 am

And a few more
Attachments
Corvair l.jpg
Corvair m.jpg
Corvair n.jpg
Corvair o.jpg
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:57 am

Two more
Attachments
Corvair a.jpg
Corvair c.jpg
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:57 pm

The 3.08 ring and pinion are RARE. Also too steep for a PG car - IMHO. You'll just end up wasting energy in the torque converter. Most PG cars came with 3.55 and 3.27 (highway) gears. The 3.55 gives more go off the line, but with the 3.27 the engine is a little quieter (lower RPM) on the highway.

If you redo the seats, makes sure you put in new foam. Clark's sells the bucket seat foam. The back seat foam/pad can be recreated by any good upholstery shop. The rear is just a foam sheet cut to fit with a cotton batting layer. Available from a good upholster supply shop.

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:57 am

66vairguy wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:57 pm
The 3.08 ring and pinion are RARE. Also too steep for a PG car - IMHO. You'll just end up wasting energy in the torque converter. Most PG cars came with 3.55 and 3.27 (highway) gears. The 3.55 gives more go off the line, but with the 3.27 the engine is a little quieter (lower RPM) on the highway.

If you redo the seats, makes sure you put in new foam. Clark's sells the bucket seat foam. The back seat foam/pad can be recreated by any good upholstery shop. The rear is just a foam sheet cut to fit with a cotton batting layer. Available from a good upholster supply shop.
Thanks for the comments on the upholstery. Sounds like good advice.

The brakes and drive train are getting the once over at the shop. Should be more or less a runner.

Once I get it home the suspension and steering are next.

After that I can have a go at the interior.

If the 3.08s are stupid expensive or just not available the 3.27 will do. Would be nice to drop the highway RPM a bit. If a substantial chunk of displacement were added, say during a rebuild, would a 3.08 necessarily be 'too tall'?
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

66vairguy
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by 66vairguy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:47 pm

Would a 3.08 be too tall? With a larger engine it would be fine, but you should get a custom torque converter to handle the extra power/torque (less slippage) or you won't see much reduction in highway RPM. Old automatics do not have a lock up drive so they ALWAYS slip a little via the torque converter. The PG only had two gears so it relied heavily on the torque converter for "torque multiplication per GM" or basically when you add the power it lets the RPM rise via the torque converter rather than shifting to a lower gear. The PG is very durable and works fine, but it's not nearly as efficient as a modern "tight" 8 speed automatic.

Regarding the axle ratio, you have to ask yourself - do you want snappy around town response, or lower RPM on the highway and less noise? You won't get both. It's really not a big deal, this is 60's technology and just enjoy it with it's shortcomings, it's what gives these cars "character". Personally I enjoy hearing that flat six at work. Also note these 60's engines were designed to run under load between 3,000 to 4,000 RPM all day long. Unlike modern engines, with piston oilers and other high tech, lugging a Corvair engine below 2,000 RPM under load is detrimental to the engine.

I have a LM convertible and they are heavy and with a thin top they are not quiet. The car is mostly for "cruising" around town so I kept the 3.55 axle for better off the line response. My LM four door was built for the highway and I put in a 3.27 axle.

Just my opinions. Feel free to ask around.

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lostboy
Posts: 350
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:59 pm

1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by lostboy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:59 pm

I just wanted to jump in here and say that (exterior) patina is absolutely perfect.

Also great info here, specifically from 66vairguy. Outstanding explanation of the power-glide. I didn't realize how much I took the torque converter for granted.


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1961 Corvair 700 Sedan (80hp 3spd Gasoline Heat)

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:30 am

66vairguy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:47 pm
Would a 3.08 be too tall? With a larger engine it would be fine, but you should get a custom torque converter to handle the extra power/torque (less slippage) or you won't see much reduction in highway RPM. Old automatics do not have a lock up drive so they ALWAYS slip a little via the torque converter. The PG only had two gears so it relied heavily on the torque converter for "torque multiplication per GM" or basically when you add the power it lets the RPM rise via the torque converter rather than shifting to a lower gear. The PG is very durable and works fine, but it's not nearly as efficient as a modern "tight" 8 speed automatic.

Regarding the axle ratio, you have to ask yourself - do you want snappy around town response, or lower RPM on the highway and less noise? You won't get both. It's really not a big deal, this is 60's technology and just enjoy it with it's shortcomings, it's what gives these cars "character". Personally I enjoy hearing that flat six at work. Also note these 60's engines were designed to run under load between 3,000 to 4,000 RPM all day long. Unlike modern engines, with piston oilers and other high tech, lugging a Corvair engine below 2,000 RPM under load is detrimental to the engine.

I have a LM convertible and they are heavy and with a thin top they are not quiet. The car is mostly for "cruising" around town so I kept the 3.55 axle for better off the line response. My LM four door was built for the highway and I put in a 3.27 axle.

Just my opinions. Feel free to ask around.
All well taken.

If I have to do an engine rebuild I thought that would be the time to add some displacement. The trans and the diff would also get the once over too.

Your comments on the PG torque converter are well taken too. Especially about the nature of the slip. It comes down to availability and cost for the 3.08. I suspect the car has a 3.27 now which would be fine.

I also liked your comments about the technology and its limitations. And enjoying it for what it is.

Everyone has their 'lane' or range of what they consider to be 'acceptable' mods. For me the V8 conversions just change the nature of the Corvair too much, IMHO. But tightening up the suspension and steering a bit, while keeping it very streetable and doing small performance mods that enhance the positive characteristics of the car are fine by me. Increased displacement, electronic points conversion etc.

Looking forward to picking up the car May 1st or so. Cruising around with my two kids will be great.

Again, your comments appreciated.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:50 am

lostboy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:59 pm
I just wanted to jump in here and say that (exterior) patina is absolutely perfect.

Also great info here, specifically from 66vairguy. Outstanding explanation of the power-glide. I didn't realize how much I took the torque converter for granted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep, lots of good posts on this thread so far. And all informative and well intentioned. Good group.

I tend to agree with you about the exterior. But even if I didn't I hope to get the car running well and drive it for some time before doing much about its cosmetic deficiencies, it would probably look like this for some time anyway.

The body seems rust and dent free; not withstanding the obvious body panel surface rust. The goal is to get the car to a serviceable level and drive it for a while.

Clean the car as is thoroughly, throw a cover on the back seat, some kind of dash cover, a left headlight trim and drive it like it is.

I'll be sure to post pics of the running car in that condition.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

Ecklund
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:49 am

Re: 1964 four door automatic project by remote

Unread post by Ecklund » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:02 am

66vairguy wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:23 pm
If you are going to keep the PG(automatic) then forget the 140HP engine and go with a latter 110HP engine. Mind you - there is nothing like looking at a 140HP engine - those four carbs, but the 110HP engine and the PG are such a great combination and easier to live with. When GM hooked up the 140HP engine to the PG the low RPM response was not as good as the 110HP. So GM installed a milder cam and used a special (140HP PG only) crank gear to increase the low RPM torque, yet provide some higher RPM power vs the 110HP. Of course this required making some PG changes to increase RPM upshift values. Bottom line IMHO - a 140HP PG setup offers very little improvement over the 110HP PG setup and a lot more complexity (carb linkage, dual mufflers, etc.), not to mention 140 HP heads require a deep seat rebuild to be reliable.

It's your car, do what you want, but one can end up with a lot of time and money involved, become frustrated and loose interest. Keep it simple, get it on the road, enjoy. Then later you can decide to do upgrades.
After thinking about how the car should progress, your comments resonate well.

Even if there is an increase to 3.1 or 3.3l during a necessary rebuild the stock engine configuration will be more than acceptable. Even if it does pose some restrictions the stock intake, heads and exhaust are proven items and are free. May take some re-jetting but the stock carbs will work just fine too.

As you indicate I can always upgrade at some later date but I get to drive the car sooner and more often.

We'll see how the stock engine runs in its current condition.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

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