Memoirs of a Monza

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joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:58 pm

Brad - Taking your advice and currently have the engine sitting on a makeshift cradle as well as a jack so that I can wheel it around.

Attached are some preliminary photos of the engine "undressing". Got all the way to the removal of the turkey roaster (I think that's what I'm supposed to call it, right?). Initial thoughts: BOY I'm glad I decided to pull the engine! As much debris as there was on the fins and the oil cooler it wouldn't have ever run at peak performance. Also, there is a small chip in my cooling fan. Is this something to be worried about? More to come later.
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Joe Farmer
64 Corvair Monza 900
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joefarmer
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Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:03 pm

Little bit more each night. "8409" visible on the crank, hoping that's one of the desirable ones.

Will finish taking off all the sheet metal tomorrow night, then dig into heads and case on Saturday.

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Joe Farmer
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GasDaddy140
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by GasDaddy140 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:42 pm

Good work Joe Farmer! I've seen very, dirty, grimy, Corvair stuff like that...and it is fun.
Alan Duquette
Rohnert Park, CA
"When in doubt...Hit the gas!" A.J. Foyt.

1965 Corvair Corsa (field find) I will build my ship that comes in.
1971 Dodge Sportsman "shorty" 318 van
2015 Nissan Juke S

joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:13 am

No doubt Alan! And that smell of 50 year old engine crank case sludge is unforgettable. Glade should really look into making a candle with a similar scent; would be a hit for garages and man caves all over the US.
Joe Farmer
64 Corvair Monza 900
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joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:40 am

Managed to get the bell housing, exhaust manifolds, valve covers, and remaining sheet metal removed last night. A few of the rockers are real loosy goosy...

Saturday will see the removal of the heads, pistons / jugs, and hopefully the splitting of the case. Then its going to be a whole lot of cleaning! Sandblasting ok for corvair components?? Should be in a good place to get my order together for Clarks next week. Regardless of the condition of the internals I will get a complete gasket set, new lifters, new rings, new seals. Not sure what else yet.

Also, I'm having second thoughts about taking the trans to the shop downtown. He is great with transmissions, but has never messed with a corvair and said he wouldn't want to touch the differential part of it either. If I feel confident rebuilding the engine do you guys think I would be able to do the trans myself? Or would I never get it right and wish I had given it to someone else? I really don't want to drop this engine again once it's back in the car.

Some degreaser and a wire brush revealed the final bit of information to complete the story of this engine:
Case ID: T0205RD - 65 - 68 110HP (originally with manual transmission)
Crank ID: 8409 - Late model (regardless of HP)
Heads: 3856759 - 65 - 67 (no smog)
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/CorvAIRCRA ... D.htm#case

Not sure what the "38B" represents on the driver's side head.... Any experts out there care to share some knowledge on this?
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Joe Farmer
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martyscarr
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by martyscarr » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:48 am

Little bit more each night. "8409" visible on the crank, hoping that's one of the desirable ones.
Yes, it is the number for the long stroke 64-69 crankshaft, it is correct for your 64 and gives you 164 cubic inches instead of 145. It also means stronger connecting rods. Your head number indicates it is for a 65 110 engine.

As mentioned, it's a good idea to upgrade to a harmonic balancer.

You asked about mounting the engine on your stand using the bellhousing, yes it can be done. I find it easier to disassemble/assemble engines on the bench standing them on the bellhousing end.

It's quite possible you don't have to split the case on this engine. I would mic the rod journals to determine the condition of the crank. Your compression figures are not that bad for an engine that has sat for 4 or more years. I prefer a leakdown test as it tells you more about the condition of rings and valves.

The Corvair PG transmission is similar to the big car Powerglide, a competent shop should have no problems.

HTH
Marty Scarr

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bbodie52
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:14 pm

The 164 CI crankshaft displaying the number 8409 is found on 164 CI engines.

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5607 signifies it from an early 145 CI engine.
7293 signifies it from an early 145 CI turbo engine.
8409 signifies it's from the late 164 CI engines, regardless of HP.


The 140 hp and 180 hp Turbo engines had a heavy-duty nitrided crankshaft — identified with an ampersand (&) stamped on the flywheel end of the crankshaft.
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Here is a link to a brief discussion on Corvair nitrided crankshafts on the Corvair Center...

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:link: http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 115,249229
martyscarr wrote:All of the Corvair turbocharged engines had nitrided crankshafts for added strength. They are identified by an ampersand "&" stamped on the flywheel end of the crankshaft. These nitrided cranks were also used in the 4 carb 140 engines...
This ampersand stamp indicating a nitrided crankshaft is also mentioned on page 69 in the book Performance Corvairs: How to Hotrod the Corvair Engine and Chassis by Bill Fisher and Seth Emerson. The book also mentions that GM lab tests showed Spyder model (1962-1963) crankshafts (forged in SAE 5140 chromium alloy steel and surface hardened by nitriding) were five times more resistant to cracking than the plain carbon steel models. In 1964 alloy steel crankshafts were used in place of the previous forged carbon steel in all models as the displacement was increased to 164 cubic inches by raising the stroke from 2.6 inches to 2.94 inches. A harmonic balancer was also used on all engines except the 95 hp unit. As previously mentioned, nitriding was included on the highest horsepower 140 hp and turbocharged engines.

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Brad Bodie
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joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:14 pm

A few Saturday updates and one very pressing technical question:

- Started off this morning sitting cross legged on the garage floor looking at my engine... I decided right then and there that I was tired of working on this thing 3" off the floor, so quick trip to the hardware store and some time spent with a skill saw produced a roll-around Corvair engine rebuilding workbench! I built it long and wide enough to support the engine and trans so that I can do a test fire after the rebuild.

- Then proceeded to get the heads removed, this is where things got difficult. I went through almost a whole can of PB blaster but still had major issues with getting bolts out (particularly the long studs that go through the heads into the case. On the top end the studs just unscrewed from the case while on the bottom end (inside the valve covers) the nuts came off the studs. I gently pried the heads away from the jugs (bending some of the fins in the process) and thought I was home free. HOWEVER, the threaded section of those long studs is getting caught on the heads, not allowing them to slide all the way off. It's almost like the OD of the threads is slightly larger than the ID of the hole going through the heads, which I know can't be true. Anyone else had this issue??? :helpsos:

- Lastly, while cleaning up the heads (which are still hanging on the case due to the issue noted above) I realized that one of the "flats" where the stud goes through is chipped significantly. It looks as though it has been chipped for a long time so the engine was running like this, but what are yall's thoughts? Replace this head because of that? The first picture shows good "flats", the second shows the chipped one.
Attachments
IMG_1280.JPG
The new and improved mobile Corvair engine rebuild workbench
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IMG_1289.JPG
The head as it currently sits. I did manage to get the center jug free, so all that is holding the head is the 6 studs which run through to the rockers.
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The threaded section of the stud that will not pass through the head
IMG_1287.JPG
Good "flats"
IMG_1288.JPG
Chipped "flat" on the left...
Joe Farmer
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joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:48 am

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Cancel that last technical question, guess I just wasn't holding my mouth right.


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Joe Farmer
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joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:07 pm

Hmm.... what the heck do I do with this?

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Joe Farmer
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MtnVairMike
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by MtnVairMike » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:39 am

Stuck valve in it's past?

Mike
1966 Monza Convertible, 140HP-4 speed, Ermine White

joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:26 am

Not sure Mike. I guess that would explain all the smoke though. I'm guessing this piston needs to be replaced. Will upload some pics of the valves this evening.
Joe Farmer
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GasDaddy140
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by GasDaddy140 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:32 am

Digging on that mobile work table, Joe Farmer! That's the way to roll, literally. I had a piston with a valve hit too. Fortunately, it's the one I dropped on the garage floor and broke. You might try that when you get yours out. Nice work!
Alan Duquette
Rohnert Park, CA
"When in doubt...Hit the gas!" A.J. Foyt.

1965 Corvair Corsa (field find) I will build my ship that comes in.
1971 Dodge Sportsman "shorty" 318 van
2015 Nissan Juke S

joefarmer
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:38 pm

Alright experts; I'm down to a case with a bunch of head studs sticking out of it... the question is whether or not to split the case open. Pros and cons? Is there some specific tests I should run like cam lift (using a dial indicator) or what?

Here's what I know so far:
1. one of the valves stuck and slammed into the top of a piston - cylinder number 4, this will require new piston, new valve stem, seal and guide -- see pics in prior post
2. one of the "flats" (where the head stud nut torques down) on the driver side head was chipped off such that the cylinder (also number 4) didn't have even torque on all 4 studs. -- see pics in prior post
3. about 50% of the rod bearings are bronze colored (I'm guessing this is due to heat / excessive wear)
4. there was sludge in the oil pan which was about the same consistency as JIF peanut butter, but this oil sludge was not the choice of choosy moms
5. all of the rings, lifters, push rods, etc are in good shape. The cylinder walls show minimal wear.
6. so far no stripped bolts, pulled out threads, or any other critical failures on the engine

Split or no split? That is the question.
Will post more pics later.
Joe Farmer
64 Corvair Monza 900
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bbodie52
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:43 am

Since the connecting rod bearings show signs of wear, I would say inspecting the main bearings and all of the crankshaft bearing surfaces would be an important step. If you pull the hydraulic lifters and intend to reuse them (and the old camshaft), mark the lifters so that they are reinstalled in the same locations so that their wear surfaces match the cam lobes they are "married" to. Otherwise plan on a new camshaft and new lifters, and a new timing gear. Clark's can provide them all, and professionally install the new timing gear, which is an important step that must be done properly.

Here are some recommendations from Clark's Corvair Parts...

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Brad Bodie
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Ecklund
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by Ecklund » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:17 am

joefarmer wrote:
Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:58 pm
Brad - Taking your advice and currently have the engine sitting on a makeshift cradle as well as a jack so that I can wheel it around.

Attached are some preliminary photos of the engine "undressing". Got all the way to the removal of the turkey roaster (I think that's what I'm supposed to call it, right?). Initial thoughts: BOY I'm glad I decided to pull the engine! As much debris as there was on the fins and the oil cooler it wouldn't have ever run at peak performance. Also, there is a small chip in my cooling fan. Is this something to be worried about? More to come later.
Thanks for the pics of the tear down. Amazing amount of debris that collected under the cowling. I can only suspect that my engine is the same.
1964 Corvair 900 (969) four door with powerglide - new project

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