Memoirs of a Monza

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bbodie52
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:44 pm

:chevy: The 1964 and 1965-1967 110 hp engines are nearly identical. The camshaft on the 110 hp and 140 hp engines are all the same. I believe the only difference between the 1964 110 hp engine and the 1965-1967 110 hp engine is the outer diameter of the cylinder barrels where they slide into the cylinder heads. The diameter was increased slightly from 3-3/4" in 1964 to 3-13/16" in 1965 and later engines. This increased the head gasket sealing surface slightly. The piston bore remained the same. Also, 1965 and later engines were fitted with an alternator in place of the generator. Of course the upper engine sheet metal was changed in 1965 to match the new body style and engine compartment layout.
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:33 pm

Alright, good news and bad news. The bad news is... engine is coming out. Took it for a ride around the block yesterday after getting the old air cleaner assembly put on and started seeing / smelling white smoke behind me (BAD). Not sure if its valve seals or broken rings, but either way the drive train is dropping out this weekend. Which leads me to the good news. I finally get to learn how to disassemble / reassemble a true corvair engine. I'm thinking with my dad's engine knowledge as well as the help of this forum I can get it running like a dream. More to come later!
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by 64powerglide » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:50 pm

You're probably sucking trans fluid out of the trans through a bad modulator valve "that's on the right side of the trans" if it's smoking out the exhaust. It works on vacuum, the fluid is pulled through the balance tube right into the intake manifold. :my02:
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:58 am

Thanks for the input, but checked the vacuum tube from modulator to carb balancer and it is dry as a bone. There is oil inside the tube going to the pcv though. Lots of oil!


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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:00 pm

ImageImageImageImage

TA DA!



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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:16 pm

:think: A cylinder compression test, possibly followed by a cylinder leak down test can often tell you a lot about the conditoin of the pistons/rings, valves, and head gaskets, before dismantling the engine.
bbodie52 wrote:The video below may help to answer some of your questions about a cylinder leak down test...

A cylinder leak down test is a more advanced diagnostic procedure, and little more difficult to perform, because it requires some fabricated plumbing or a special test instrument, and a large capacity air compressor. Each cylinder to be tested is set at Top Dead Center (TDC) on the compression stroke (both valves closed). External air pressure is applied through the spark plug hole, and the percentage of leakage is evaluated. The source of the leakage (intake valve, exhaust valve, cylinder head gasket, or piston/cylinder seal) can be determined using an automotive stethoscope to listen for the leakage path (intake manifold, exhaust manifold, or crankcase). This test is performed on each cylinder, to determine the mechanical seal and condition of each cylinder. A video demonstration of this process (in this case, using a Volkswagen engine) is shown below.

bbodie52 wrote:For comparison, there are many leak down testers available on Amazon.com. An example is shown below...

Image

OTC 5609 Cylinder Leakage Tester Kit

4½ Stars out of 5 with 94 customer reviews | 5 answered questions
List Price: $109.95
Price: $64.00 & FREE Shipping.

Prices ranged from $30.99 to $123.86 with 11 LEAK DOWN units listed.

:link: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st_revie ... eview-rank

A decent mechanic's stethoscope can be had for about $15.00...

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Also helps to locate noisy idler bearings, blower bearings, etc.

OF COURSE, A PURCHASE OR A RENTAL WILL DO YOU NO GOOD IF YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO A DECENT AIR COMPRESSOR WITH ADEQUATE CAPACITY.
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:38 am

Thanks again Brad - I do plan to do some more advanced diagnostics prior to dismantling engine. The power train is out and in process of cleaning the exterior. Will then break apart at bell housing and mount engine on stand. Transaxle will go to a local shop that specializes in trans rebuilding.

Last night I took some time to clean, bag, and label all of the parts that were taken off as part of the power train removal process. While doing this I took apart the cross member that bolts to the rear of the transaxle and all of the shims fell out on the ground before I could count them..... :doh: From what I understand these shims serve to adjust the rear toe-in. Will this be hard to do? Any recommendations on how to go about with reassembly? Granted, this will be some time from now because I plan to take my time on the engine rebuild, but just wanted to be prepared when it comes time to put the power train back in.

Will provide more pics when engine makes it way up onto the stand. Excited to get started!
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by MtnVairMike » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:30 am

bbodie52 wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:44 pm
:chevy: The 1964 and 1965-1967 110 hp engines are nearly identical. The camshaft on the 110 hp and 140 hp engines are all the same. I believe the only difference between the 1964 110 hp engine and the 1965-1967 110 hp engine is the outer diameter of the cylinder barrels where they slide into the cylinder heads. The diameter was increased slightly from 3-3/4" in 1964 to 3-13/16" in 1965 and later engines. This increased the head gasket sealing surface slightly. The piston bore remained the same. Also, 1965 and later engines were fitted with an alternator in place of the generator. Of course the upper engine sheet metal was changed in 1965 to match the new body style and engine compartment layout.
Brad,

Wasn't the 140 camshaft different for PG versus manual installations in the LM's? I thought the PG got the 95HP cam instead.
You much faster with the GM part numbers from your archive is why I ask.

Thanks,

Mike
1966 Monza Convertible, 140HP-4 speed, Ermine White

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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by Gregory_Miller » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:58 pm

The camshafts were identical; the cam drive gear was different with a 4 degree offset to provide more low-end torque with the PG I believe.

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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:23 am

I looked through the published GM Heritage Center Specifications for model years 1964-1969. I found it interesting that the 1964-1968 110 hp and 140 hp engines all shared identical 340°duration camshaft specifications. The 95 hp engines all shared the same 312° duration camshafts.

Interestingly the 110 hp and 140 hp valve lift was only .3907 in 1964-1965, and was increased to .4090 in 1966-1969. The base 95 hp valve lift remained .4030 in all model years. Also, the rocker arm ratio in 1964-1965 110 hp and 140 hp engines was 1.50:1, but was 1.57:1 on the 95 hp engine. When the 110 hp and 140 hp camshaft lift was increased to .4090 in 1966-1969 engines, the rocker arm ratio also changed to 1.57:1, which became the standard for all Corvair engines from 1966-1969.

Also note that in 1969 only the 110 hp engine received the 340° duration camshaft. The 140 hp engine received the 312° camshaft used in the 95 hp engine, which included a reduced valve lift as well. I'm guessing that this was done because of issues with the smog pump-equipped 140 hp engine (Air Injection Reactor).
Camshaft Specifications - 1964-1969 Corvair.jpg
Camshaft Specifications - 1964-1969 Corvair (from GM Heritage Center Specifications)
:chevy: :chevy: :chevy:
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1964 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs.pdf
1964 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs
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1965 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs.pdf
1965 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs
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1966-Chevrolet-Corvair - GM Heritage Center Specs.pdf
1966 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs
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1967 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs.pdf
1967 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs
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1968-Chevrolet-Corvair - GM Heritage Center Specs.pdf
1968 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs
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1969 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs.pdf
1969 Chevrolet Corvair GM Heritage Center Specs
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by MtnVairMike » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:24 am

Brad,

Thanks for all the detailed info. I was recalling it wasn't exactly clear cut. I am still a bit confused.
From the 1970 parts manual it looks like 1966 140/PG used 3839889 cam while 1966 140/4sp used 3872304 cam.

Am I missing something here? Just trying to drink from the Corvair firehose as a newbie to them but a lifelong gearhead.

Thanks,

Mike

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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:13 pm

I guess these inconsistencies only reveal flaws within the Chevrolet engineering and technical writing divisions. Mistakes and errors apparently crept into documentation, so shop manuals, parts manuals, and Heritage Center documentation weren't always in sync. Corvairs were slowly dying, with various models being dropped, engineers trying to adapt to customer feedback, mechanic feedback, marketing changes, management uncertainties, and a tug of war between design engineers, corporate accountants, dealerships, federal and state emissions bureaucracies, and federal safety rules.

In 2017, with only limited documentation available to us to try to decipher, it is hard to guess just what was going on with Corvair production back in the 1960's!

:neener: :dontknow: :doh: :nono: :helpsos: :angry: :eek: :whoa:
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by 66vairguy » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:34 pm

Gregory_Miller wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:58 pm
The camshafts were identical; the cam drive gear was different with a 4 degree offset to provide more low-end torque with the PG I believe.
The 140HP PG engines got a DIFFERENT camshaft to boost low end torque #3839889 (same cam used on the 65-69 95HP engine). With the bigger valves and 4 carburetors the cam was retarded 4 degrees (via a special crank gear) to move the torque curve up a little in the RPM band (the 95HP cam was too conservative). Why didn't GM just make a special cam for the 140HP PG - I've never seen an explanation.

The 110HP PG or manual engines got the same cam AND the same cam gear (standard). ONLY the 140PG got the special retarded crankshaft gear. Although by 69 some claim GM was using the retarded gear in ALL 140HP engines - I have no proof of this.

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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:00 am

I just noticed in your picture of your engine that the incorrect crankshaft pulley is installed. A 1965-1967 110 hp engine (or any 1964-1969 110 hp engine) should have a harmonic balancer installed to protect the long-stroke 164 CID crankshaft. The solid cast pulley was only used for 95 hp engines in this displacement category. In any case, the steel riveted pulley shown was only found on 1960-1963 Corvairs.

The harmonic balancer is a 3-piece component that has a center hub and an outer dampening ring that are held together by a rubber ring that is pressed in place. As these assemblies age, the rubber component deteriorates with age, and the outer ring begins to slip and separate. Some owners, in an attempt to find an inexpensive pulley to replace the failed harmonic balancer, substitute an early model solid pulley from a 145 CID engine. GM engineers felt it necessary to utilize a harmonic balancer when the engine displacement was increased to 164 CID using a long-stroke crankshaft. Without it engine crankshaft harmonics could ultimately promote a crankshaft failure.

Needs Harmonic Balancer (1965-67 Engine).jpg
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Recommend a new harmonic balancer be purchased and installed. (A used harmonic balancer has already aged with use, and its remaining operational life is unknown).

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... IN&page=11
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:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... ge=OTTO-23
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Also, There are some variations in the rear engine mount bracket, as shown below. The original Early Model bracket was very close to the crankshaft pulley. When the crankshaft pulley changed to a harmonic balancer in 1964, the added thickness of the harmonic balancer was so close to the bracket that a fan belt could not be mounted. The shape of the engine mount bracket was changed to provide for more clearance. This new shape was retained in the new two-hole design introduced in 1965. The added clearance was also needed for air conditioning or smog pump crankshaft pulleys.

Image

In the picture it looks like you have an early (1960-63) rear mounting bracket on your engine. If this is true, and if you change to a harmonic balancer you will also need to install a 1964 rear engine bracket to allow a fan belt to be fitted. Clark's may have the correct item, but if they don't you might try contacting the Corvair Ranch to obtain the correct bracket from a 1964 Corvair.

:link: http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalog ... age=USED-3
Image
ITEM 48A
Part number CU126: USED REAR MOTOR MOUNT BRACKET 64 CAR/* *64-65 VAN & 61-63 CARS WITH A/C

Weight: 3 lbs 0 oz
Catalog Pages(s): 12(48),U,3(48A)
Price: $ 31.00


Try the Corvair Ranch...

:link: http://www.corvairranch.com/
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1079 Bon-Ox Road, ​Gettysburg, ​PA. 17325 USA
​Phone: (717) 624-2805
Fax us by the same number... ask us to hook up the machine
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Our hours are Monday thru Friday 9 to 5, Saturday 9 to 12
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by joefarmer » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:44 pm

Brad - As usual thanks for the knowledge sharing and attention to detail here! :not worthy: :not worthy: :not worthy: I'm sure that will save me a lot of heartbreak down the road. I will begin a search for the correct mount and order a harmonic balancer along with the engine components from Clarks. Waiting to place the order until the engine is completely broken down so I can tell how much will be needed. Since the block is a 65 and everything else so far (including the crank pulley) looks to be 63/64 I have a feeling I may have some sort of Frankenstein engine here. This leads me to my next question - Am I ok to mount the engine on an engine stand using 3/8" bolts through the bell housing? All of the other engines that have been on my stand are bolted into the meaty part of the block using much larger bolts, so this is a little outside my comfort zone. My stand is pretty conventional, 4 casters (not a tripod type), 4 places to bolt to engine, rotates 360 degrees, so on and so forth. I am confident in the stand, just not sure about the size of the bolts and the strength of the bell housing. Is there specific holes to use for putting on stand?

As of now the engine and trans are separated; waiting on feedback from you guys before hanging the engine on the stand. Trans will get dropped off at the mechanics shop Friday and will begin "undressing" the engine each night this week. Its going to be a slow process because I am trying to clean as I go, take lots of pics, and bag / label all of the nuts and bolts as they come off. Slow and steady right? I'm hoping I'll be down to the crank by Saturday night! More updates to come later.

Once again, thanks to everyone who has been involved in this thread as well as all others on this forum. INCREDIBLY helpful information and support; really making this a fun project.
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Re: Memoirs of a Monza

Unread post by bbodie52 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:57 pm

In my experience, the conventional engine stand you described is not all that useful when working on a Corvair engine. With an in-line six cylinder engine or a V-8 engine there is quite a bit of work to do with the bottom end after you remove the oil pan. However with the Corvair engine, there is very little that is accessible when you remove the oil pan. Much of the work is done by separating the two halves of the engine cases. This cannot be done as long as the bell housing is attached to the engine cases. So mounting the bell housing to a conventional engine stand would prevent you from doing much of the work, until you remove the engine from the stand so that you can detach the bell housing.

I usually set the engine on a pair of 4 x 4's or stack of two by fours, or some sort of table arrangement or on a workbench. Once the heads and cylinder barrels and top cover have been removed the aluminum engine is relatively light. It can be easily handled to position it on end or upside down when needed. I think you will find that your conventional engine stand is not all that useful when working on a Corvair engine.
Brad Bodie
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