Electric fuel pump

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erco
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by erco »

My '67 Monza 140 came with an electric fuel pump, mounted forward of the firewall. Worked fine but it would buzz when it got hot. Like engine hot on a hot day, stopped at a light. Buzzing starts, I guess fuel is vaporizing in the pump, all that heat off the muffler. As soon as I resume driving and airflow starts, the buzzing stops. I'm definitely relocating the new pump close to the tank before she gets back on the road after 20 years.

66vairguy
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by 66vairguy »

We had a character at work that would take the easy way and ignore good advice. We used to say his motto was "Why do things correctly when you can do them half arssed". Management finally got rid of him after he caused a costly problem for the company.

erco
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by erco »

66vairguy wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:31 am
We had a character at work that would take the easy way and ignore good advice. We used to say his motto was "Why do things correctly when you can do them half arssed".
The world is rife with those characters. Some in very high places!

Airzack
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by Airzack »

Hmm. Its still performing flawlessly. And in texas heat. I probably have added more miles on my corvair since the fuel pump replacement than 99% of corvair owners on this forum. I understand your opinions but results speak for themselves.

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61SuperMonza
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by 61SuperMonza »

My pump is located in the engine bay as well. I know it's a highly debated subject but for me the ease of possible replacement and the noise potential of mounting it to the unibody made me mount it where I did. I haven't had any problems with the pump and when I do it will take under 20 minutes. Glad you are having positive results like me.
First corvair in 1985
Have owned 4 corvairs since
65 Corsa coupe 180 turbo
66 Monza coupe 110 PG
66 Monza coupe 140 PG
61 Monza club coupe w/ 150 turbo
Anchorage,AK

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bbodie52
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by bbodie52 »

:think: :my02: My only argument would be in favor of retaining a mechanical pump in the first place, instead of making the change to an electric pump. Both are, after all, mechanical pumps — one driven by electric motor, and the other driven by a cam lobe in the engine. The additional noise generated by the electric pump is not a consideration with the mechanical pump. Fuel filtration is important for either configuration, and an intact, leak-free fuel line between the tank, pump, and carburetors is always important. An electric pump located near the fuel tank might be something of an increased fire hazard if a leak occurs in the long line between the tank area and the engine compartment, since a leak in a pressurized line is somewhat more hazardous as a fire danger. If the pump is in the engine compartment, a leak in the long line from the tank is essentially a vacuum leak that prevents fuel from being pulled to the engine compartment pump, but the long line leak would not be under pressure and may not leak fuel at all, if the pump cannot create a vacuum to pull the fuel to the rear of the vehicle.

It could be argued that the increased number of possible points of failure for an electric pump is greater than for the mechanical pump, since the properly installed electric pump system is more complex and would likely include fuses and safety interlock switches designed to cut power if the engine stops or in a vehicle collision. A mechanical pump, of course, automatically stops fuel delivery if the engine stops — without added (electrical interrupt) sensors. A mechanical pump failure will usually only occur if the internal diaphragm ruptures or tears (rare), or if a leak occurs in the feed line between the pump and the fuel tank.

If a mechanical pump failure occurs, a spare mechanical pump in the trunk makes for an easy and inexpensive swap in the engine compartment. A failure in an electric pump system may be somewhat more difficult to troubleshoot, since it could be the pump itself or somewhere in the electrical supply chain (wiring, fuses, relays, or safety interlocks).

I suppose I am somewhat lucky, in that in the history of ten family Corvairs owned between 1961 and the present, I have never had a mechanical fuel pump fail. In the many millions of Corvair miles driven by owners, the mechanical pumps do have a lengthy history of reliable operation. The weak link and poor reputation appeared with a period of aftermarket poor-quality replacement mechanical pumps that were in the supply system for a number of years. But that problem seems to have largely faded away with increased instance in better manufacturer quality control by most parts suppliers.

In any case, reliable high-quality electric pumps are also readily available. Conversion to a properly installed, safely wired electric pump system can be a little pricey and somewhat complex, when compared to retaining the factory design mechanical pump. But it should not be assumed that conversion to an electric pump system is automatically a direct path to increased reliability.



Mechanical vs Electric Fuel Pump: How to Do It Right
:link: https://www.tdmotion.com/mechanic-vs-el ... uel-pumps/
Brad Bodie
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by terribleted »

I think you are very lucky Brad. I went electric a long time ago after multiple (more than 10 failures of relatively new pumps on more than one car I am sure). At one point I put 3 pumps from supposedly the best sources in my car in a year (driven daily). I have never had an electric pump failure. I also do not run multiple safety switches only using an inertia switch If I use anything at all. That and toggle switch under the dash is all. The wiring is one wire to ground and one wire from pump to ignition switched power at the ignition switch (through the toggle and inertia switches if used), through an inline fuse so trouble shooting is a breeze. Very simple to bypass wiring with a hot wire to the pump if it quits. If it runs it is a loose wire if it does not it is the pump.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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bbodie52
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by bbodie52 »

Image

Maybe the original Delco factory-installed pumps were particularly reliable, since I have never had occasion to have to purchase and install a replacement mechanical Corvair pump from any auto parts store, Clark's Corvair Parts, or any online source. As you said...I have been lucky. :neener: And it has certainly not been for lack of driving Corvairs, since I have much Corvair-based travel across country and around the USA, and in Europe while stationed in Germany.

I have no doubt that electric pumps are of good quality, although I have had several in-tank electric pumps fail (Ford Explorer and GMC Sierra). As you suggested (and has often been argued on the Corvair Forum and in other places), switching to an electric pump requires some research and decision-making on the part of the Corvair owner. Choosing a good pump, such as the often recommended Facet, and then deciding on proper, safe plumbing, proper, safe pump location, fuel filter(s), electrical wiring, cut-off switch, inertia safety switch, oil pressure safety switch, and which emergency tools and spare parts might be appropriate — just in-case — are all considerations. Poor choices can be hazardous. So can a leaky mechanical fuel pump! But the GM engineers seem to have done a good job in this area — with reasonably safe and reliable fuel delivery in a stock Corvair setup. Making changes to an electric pump system also requires careful consideration and reasonable design layout for a safe and reliable outcome.
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Facet 40189N, Facet Cube 12v Fuel Pump, 1/8 NPT, 3.5-5 psi, Price: $75.70
:link: https://www.amazon.com/Facet-40189N-Cub ... ljaz10cnVl
$66.99 :link: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... RecID=8441Image

Which Facet / Bendix Fuel Pump do I have?
:link: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/docum ... =TECH00023
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The Airtex oil pressure safety switch stops the electric fuel pump when engine stops to prevent continued fuel delivery through the system in the event of an accident. This is an important safety feature when installing a universal electric fuel pump. This switch is designed for use with any universal in-line electric fuel pump.
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The material I found below about the inertia activated fuel pump shutoff switch indicates that this switch has a reset button on the top.
:link: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... oCZcHw_wcB
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Pegasus Part No. 1108 - Fuel Pump Shut-Off Switch - Inertia Activated
Our Inertia Activated Fuel Pump Shut-Off Switch will cut power to an electric fuel pump after an impact of 10 to 12 G's or higher*, reducing the risk of post-crash fires caused by pressurized fuel sprayed from ruptured fuel lines. Resets with a simple push on the top of the switch.


The electric fuel pump controller shown below appears to be a well thought-out solution for safe operation that provides both electric fuel pump cutoff safety and initial pump priming without all of the added complexity of developing the plumbing for an oil pressure safety switch sensing point and a lot of added rear engine compartment wiring. Most of the wiring could remain under the dashboard and in the front supporting the electric fuel pump were it should be — near the fuel tank. For non-Corsa/Spyder installations, a tachometer pulse sensing wire would have to be routed to the ignition coil negative terminal. (The main vehicle wiring harness may contain much of the needed wiring. A short lead from the coil to the engine compartment multi-connector and a connection under the dashboard may be all that's needed).

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:link: https://www.revolutionelectronics.com/P ... _Pump.html
Revolution Electronics Electric Fuel Pump Controller. Primes the pump on key-on and turns the pump off if the engine stops.
Price: $64.99 + $8.25 shipping
:link: https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Elect ... 348&sr=8-2

For effective fault isolation and troubleshooting, a good understanding of the newly installed electric fuel pump system is essential if a fuel delivery system every fails. The number of variables and components are often more complex than the orignal mechanical pump system. :dontknow: :think:
Brad Bodie
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by terribleted »

Those square box diaphragm pumps are noisy as hell. I ran one of those once and replaced it shortly thereafter. The Airtex E8016S has been my choice for years now. Rotating vane type pump makes a hum rather than sounding like a midget slapping the bottom of the car with a hammer:) I have used these and an intank unit that David Herrin supplied when he was operating The Source years ago ( these were really nice and almost silent). The E8016S makes 3-4.5PSI and is perfect for the Corvair with no additional regulators or similar required. For those who prefer to use and oil pressure shutoff switch I recommend a toggle switch to bypass this safety switch and power the pump when there is no oil pressure as after sitting crank to start times can be extended due to no fuel in the carbs.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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bbodie52
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by bbodie52 »

:goodpost: :goodpost:
terribleted wrote:Those square box diaphragm pumps are noisy as hell.
I never new that about the Facet cubic pumps... NOISY, I mean. :assault: :spongebob: :imsorry:

It appears that there are a lot of Facet CLONES, too! :doh:

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terribleted wrote:The Airtex E8016S has been my choice for years now...

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:link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atx-e8016s

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Issues with Airtex E8016S electric fuel pumps
:link: http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,819416


The Facet cube seems to have a good reputation for reliability. Perhaps this Facet pump would be reliable, a good fuel pressure for Corvair Rochester HV and Carter YH carburetors, and quiet too!
Facet Cylindrical 12v Fuel Pump, 1/8 NPT, 2.75-4 psi
ImageImage
:link: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... gJY2PD_BwE
Brand: Facet-Purolator
PRICE REDUCED!
Was $97.99 - Now only $86.99 - you save $11.00!
Also known as the "Black Top" cylindrical pump, the classic Facet (formerly Bendix) Gold-Flo model 477060 fuel pump is ideal for most imported cars running low-pressure carburetors. It is equally at home on many RV generators.

Facet Cylindrical pumps have low power requirements (about 1.6 amp at 12 volts) and operate without troublesome seals or diaphragms. Built-in pressure relief means no flooding after shutting down a hot engine. Facet pumps are compatible with gasoline, alcohol blends (up to and including E85), diesel, biodiesel, and fuel additives.

Maximum pressure 2.75-4.0 psi. Maximum flow 34 gallons per hour. Typical applications flow 10 GPH at 2 psi or 25 GPH at 1.5 psi. (This is the lowest-pressure Cylindrical style pump available.) 1/8 NPT female ports. Negative ground (12v) only.

This pump features an internal 74 micron filter. This pump does not have an anti-siphon valve or a one-way valve, so fuel can flow in either direction when the pump is off. Facet part number 477060 (E)*, supercedes 480513 (E), 480544 (E), and 480588 (E). This pump is also sold under Kohler part number 238953 and Onan number 149P650.

* Note: The Facet “Interruptor” style pumps now feature reliable solid-state technology instead of points! The "E" stands for "Electronic". Same function, same packaging, and same operation, but much greater reliability.

Beware of counterfeits! We only sell Genuine Facet pumps - not the unreliable foreign knock-offs sold elsewhere. Facet pumps are still Made in the USA.
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible

erco
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by erco »

A timely discussion for me and my long-term project. My '67 always had an electric fuel pump, a noisy click-click Airtex type, 1980's vintage. Worked fine except for buzzing when stopped on a hot day. That was a high-pressure pump, so I always used an external fuel pressure regulator. Honestly I never could hear the pump over the engine's regular roar ordinarily. I actually liked hearing a few clicks on startup.

I'm still sorting out which of two different electric fuel pumps to use in my car's next incarnation. I have one of those rectangular pumps pictured prior, as well as a cylindrical type: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Fuel- ... 2508071300 Both of these are low pressure pumps, no pressure regulator required. I have one of each, I plan to do some bench testing to select which one to use. Will advise if there is significant sound difference, but again, that's not a big worry for me.
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erco
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by erco »

Brad posted previously about this $60 impact switch: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... p?RecID=87

Sure seems like a great idea, and cheap insurance since that same switch can be had for $10 & free ship at

https://www.amazon.com/KKmoon-Inertia-S ... B08BLPWW7Z or https://www.ebay.com/itm/392899301051

Both include pigtail & wiring, which Pegasus doesn't. If you balked at $60, I just saved you $50. All I need from you is $10. :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
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61SuperMonza
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by 61SuperMonza »

You want the inertia switch in the system for sure. In my opinion it is a must have. As far as the pump type I would got with the cylindrical type. It is much quieter. I have the same setup as I mentioned and it works great with the pump installed in the engine bay. I know many will disagree but it works great and as installed the untrained eye would not notice the pump.
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First corvair in 1985
Have owned 4 corvairs since
65 Corsa coupe 180 turbo
66 Monza coupe 110 PG
66 Monza coupe 140 PG
61 Monza club coupe w/ 150 turbo
Anchorage,AK

erco
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by erco »

61SuperMonza wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:23 am
As far as the pump type I would got with the cylindrical type. It is much quieter.
TTYTT I don't mind a loud pump. Corvairs are already loud cars and even my buzzy Dupree pumps couldn't be heard above typical engine roar.

Under normal operation, electric pumps make a click sound every few seconds, depending on fuel flow rate. On startup, you'll hear several clicks until the carb fuel bowls fill up and the clicking stops. I actually like to hear all that on startup to confirm the carb floats & needle valves aren't stuck open. With 4 carbs, you have 4 times the chance that raw gas is leaking on or into your engine. As "Kyle" below found out. Dude milked an entire article out of one typical day in a Corvair owners life. https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenan ... b-rebuild/


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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by terribleted »

Cylindrical pumps only hum. No hammering click. The gold Facet diaphragm box pump I used was quite loud mounted near the tank. Rubber isolation helped but the other pumps are much quieter.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
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Located in Snellville, Georgia

erco
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Re: Electric fuel pump

Post by erco »

I got my 10-dollar inertia switch and it looks fine. Only thing is the switch has 3 electrical terminals (C, NC, NO) and the connector has 2 wires. It connects to the wrong terminal and the green connector wire needs to be moved. From what I see, this SNAFU applies to all versions of this switch whether you pay $10 or $60.

The simplest way to use a switch like this is to wire it as an inline make & break switch connecting the fuel pump to 12V through the ignition switch. The only info I've found on rated current is at https://www.electricmotorsport.com/rese ... ensor.html, which says the switch is rated for 10 amps, which should be sufficient for most electric fuel pumps. In this application, you want the switch to be closed/shorted (reset button pressed) for normal operation and for the switch to open after a crash impact. The two switch terminals which function like this are the outer ones, C and NC (Common and Normally Closed) per photo. But the included 2-wire connector connects to Common and Normally Open or NO. This gives the opposite function, switch is open before crash and closed afterward. So you want to move the green wire from the center hole on the connector to the outer hole. A small jewelers screwdriver can be used to push the connector tab in to release it. Note there is a small plastic cover inside the connector which must be removed first.

One reviewer made the same observation at https://www.amazon.com/ask/questions/as ... atf_aqp_dp

Question:Is the switch supposed to show continuity on a meter? I get no continuity.
Answer:Yes you my be right, mine had the wrong wire position in the plug, 3 terminals NO NC and COM. I went to NAPA and got a solderless plug terminal and wired to the NC and COM. Notr the yellow part of the plug comes off and the wire with FM terminal goes in the front of the plug wire first, then yellow piece snapped back on. I used the other wire as an indicator light when it's tripped.


Some people might choose to add a relay to switch the fuel pump on. In which case using the switch as-is makes sense. Under normal operation, the relay is not energized and the fuel pump is powered using the relay's Normally Closed contacts. In case of a crash, the inertia switch closes, providing power to the relay, which energizes and switches the pump off.
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