New to Corvairs - where should I start?

[bbodie52]

It is better to not be able to go, than to not be able to STOP!

When you buy a 50+ year old Corvair, you inherit all of the sins of the previous owners, mechanics, etc. Work on the old Corvair is not only a procedure and maintenance learning process, but it is something of detective work as you explore to see what's what!

One of the things to put on your "TO DO" list is a thorough brake inspection, to include flushing out all of the old brake fluid and replacing it with fresh DOT3 brake fluid. Bleeding all of the air out of the lines is a part of this process.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air over time. Brake fluid that has absorbed excess water can cause corrosion and damage in the steel brake lines and inside the master cylinder and wheel cylinders. When you inspect your brakes, some of the wheel cylinders may show signs of damage on the inside cylinder walls. You may choose to hone the wall with a special tool and rebuild the cylinders, or you may decide to simply replace each wheel cylinder. As a part of a thorough brake system cleaning, overhaul, inspection and reconditioning, you my consider an upgrade of the master cylinder from the original design to a dual master cylinder design (which was mandated by the Federal Government as a safety enhancement). Dual master cylinders became standard equipment in 1967 and later Corvairs. 1962-1966 Corvairs can be upgraded to a dual master cylinder. The upgrade requires some brake system plumbing modifications around the master cylinder in the trunk and under the dashboard area to divide the front and rear brakes into separate subsystems — each of which gets connected to one-half of the new dual master cylinder.

The brake system in your aging Corvair needs to be monitored. The condition of the aging seals in the master cylinder and wheel cylinders is certainly questionable. All should be inspected regularly. The flexible brake hoses also should be monitored, as they can swell on the inside and restrict brake fluid flow. Of course the drums and brake components should be inspected and repaired, as needed, and the brake fluid should be flushed and replaced every few years. (Brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs moisture from the air over time. Excess water build-up in the fluid can rust steel brake lines and cause corrosive damage to the internal wheel and master cylinders. Moisture in the brake fluid will also lower the boiling point, which can result in early brake fade as the brakes get hot).

The parking brake assembly is also critically important — not only as an emergency brake but because the Powerglide-equipped Corvair has no PARK position to lock the transmission when you park the vehicle. You must rely completely on the parking brake system to secure the vehicle when it is parked. The front and rear cables and the pulleys should be inspected periodically and lubricated as needed. A frayed cable can separate without warning and possibly leave your Corvair rolling down a hill or driveway if it snaps.

https://ssl.corvair.com/user-cgi/catalo ... w_page=143

Brake Line Warning

Replace those brake lines, especially if your car or FC has the original brake lines; DO NOT WAIT! Replace them even if they look perfect on the outside. The reason, brake fluid attracts water (even today's car manufacturers suggest bleeding the system every 2 years!) If the water stays in one area of a line for too long, it can easily rust from the inside. Don't put yourself, your passengers or your classic vehicle at risk.

Wheel Cylinder/Brake Hose Installation Warning for all Cars & FC's

If you are replacing a wheel cylinder, you must remove the brake hose from the body. If you leave the hose attached to the body and just spin on the wheel cylinder, you risk the hose being twisted while tightening. This may force the hose against the tire rim or suspension.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf2gOC ... HDhHBgvTXA

In this video, Larry Claypool dives into the drum brake system: differences between years, proper adjustment, common mistakes to avoid, and other tips. Larry visits with Scott Bethke of Brake Materials and Parts to review the importance of the right materials and proper fitment of the shoes to the drums.

Brakes with Larry Claypool — a training video for your viewing pleasure...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQUTN6qaNj8

[ponyguru]

Well, Today I didn't have nearly as much time as I would have hoped. I was not able to get the car up in the air to take the wheels off to inspect the brakes (and fuel line by the rear driver wheel). I was able to read up (and watch most of Claypool's brake video) this morning on the brakes and fuel system, so I have an idea of what I should be looking for - I plan to get it up in the air tomorrow.

With that being said, I was able to look over some more surface level things today. I have attached pictures of my body numbers, my engine block numbers, my brake master cylinder, and a peculiarity I noticed on the engine. My left carbs appear significantly more fouled than my right carbs. When I started it up this morning to bring it to some flat ground, I noticed a little white smoke coming from my left exhaust only. Regardless, she started up and moved (and stopped) without any fuss.

[66vairguy]

The engine I.D. suffix "ZF" was used on 1961 98HP, 1962-63 102HP, and 1964 110HP engines. Hard to say what's in inside the engine. The 1964 engines had the longer stroke.

Your guess the 140HP heads were added to the original (or similar) engine appears to be correct.

So it is doubtful the engine has the special 140HP PG crankshaft.

The secondary carburetor looks like it has the 1966 140HP and newer "lock out" linkage. This was done so the secondaries could not be opened until the choke on the primary was open (off). Sounds complex, yes it was and proved to be troublesome. The 1965 secondary linkage was simpler, but issues due to improper operator operation led to the 1966 design --- looooong story. Today most install the 1965 style linkage and drive the car properly.

If you ever determine what the engine size is (short stroke or long stroke 1964) and what distributor is in it some suggestions can be made.

[bbodie52]

I was not able to get the car up in the air to take the wheels off to inspect the brakes (and fuel line by the rear driver wheel). I was able to read up (and watch most of Claypool's brake video) this morning on the brakes and fuel system, so I have an idea of what I should be looking for...

I have been around Corvairs most of my life, but I often learn more from browsing the Corvair Forum and from watching the CORSA/Larry Claypool videos.

There is a long fuel line that runs the length of the car from the fuel tank to the fuel pump, and there are TWO SHORT LENGTHS of rubber fuel line that should be checked for aging, cracks, or deterioration...

NEVER CRAWL UNDER A CAR WITH ONLY A JACK HOLDING IT UP — MECHANICAL JACK OR HYDRAULIC. They can fail unexpectedly. Always support the car safely and securely with jack stands.



In order to pressurize and deliver fuel to the carburetors, the pump must be able to create a continuous vacuum in that fuel line to draw the fuel from the tank to the pump. Most of the fuel line is made up of steel tubing and is unlikely to develop a leak. However, there are two short lengths of rubber fuel hose in the fuel path. One section of hose is found at the fuel tank outlet, while the other is found adjacent to the starter motor — just before the line enters the engine compartment. The purpose of the second hose is to absorb vibration from the engine and prevent it from reaching the rigid steel fuel line. If either one of these two hoses develops a leak, the leak itself may not be apparent because the line is not under pressure so fuel will not be forced out. Instead, the leak amounts to a vacuum leak, which can allow air to enter the fuel line. This can prevent fuel from being drawn from the tank to the fuel pump, much like you might experience with a drinking straw if the straw was to split and developed an air leak in the side of the straw.

[bbodie52]

Here is a breakdown of the information on the body tag you provided...
BODY TAG INFO:

05D
Body Build Date: 05 = May (1964) D = Fourth Week
The first two digits are numbers 01 through 12, indicating the month of manufacture. The letter is A-E, indicating the week of the month. If the letter is a "D" it indicates the fourth week of the month.



STYLE 64 0967 WR 26656 BODY
Style: 64 = 1964 0967: 09 = Monza, 67 = 2-Door Convertible 4-Passenger,
WR = Willow Run, Michigan (no other plants that year), Production Sequence No: 26656

1964 Chevrolet Corvair Monza 2-Door Convertible - 4 Passenger, Total Production: 31,045



TRim: 781 2 = RED (MONZA and MONZA SPYDER SERIES — Bucket Front Seats)
This 3 digit codes represents the interior color and seat type. An extra digit is include for 1963-64 convertibles for the top color.
Top color codes:
1964: 1 = white 2 = black 3 = beige

Paint: 900 = BLACK "Tuxedo Black"
Lucite No. 88L, Rinshed-Mason No. A 946, Ditzler No. DDL 9300




Example — 1964 Corvair Monza Convertible in Tuxedo Black
This example of a 1964 Turbocharged Spyder was for sale in Arizona. The price was $28,500. Only 4,761 were manufactured.

ACC = Accessory line
When decoding ACC line on the Fisher body tags, be aware that body tags do not include any options that did not require any body modification be done by Fisher. Fisher was only concerned with items that required modifications during the assembly of the body. A good example is that you won’t find Telescopic column listed on the body tag. Although this is a major option, it did not require any special consideration during body assembly.

W 2MP

GROUP 1
W = (RPO A02) Tinted windshield only

GROUP 2
M = (RPO M35) 2 Speed Powerglide Automatic Transmission
P = (RPO Z01) Convenience group (2 speed wipers, w/washer, day/night mirror, glovebox light, backup lights)

GROUP 3
NONE

GROUP 4
NONE

GROUP 5
NONE

Engine Cases — Serial No: T0525ZF

T0525ZF

T = Tonawanda, New York (GM Tonawanda Engine Plant)
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/comp ... wanda.html
0525 = Engine manufacturing date (month and date). May 25th.

"ZF" is from 1961-1964 (No year is included in the date stamp, unfortunately).
ZF
1961: 98hp — 145 CID (Cubic Inch Displacement), 8:1 Compression Ratio, with Powerglide Automatic Transmission — Corvair 535, 735 (4-Door Station Wagon, 6-Passenger) only.
1962-1963: 102hp — 145 CID (Cubic Inch Displacement), 9:1 Compression Ratio, with Powerglide Automatic Transmission — Corvair 500, 700 and 900 Monza only.
1964: 110hp — 164 CID (Cubic Inch Displacement), 9:1 Compression Ratio, with Powerglide Automatic Transmission — Corvair 500, 700 and 900 Monza only.

===================================================

If you remove the top engine cover to expose the crankshaft, the number cast into the crankshaft identifies the stroke...

Note: in 1964 and later, the increase in crankshaft stroke necessitated changes to the engine cases and cylinder barrels to provide necessary clearance. A 164 CI combination will not fit in earlier engine cases or with 1963 and earlier cylinder barrels.

5607 signifies it from an early 145 CI engine.
7293 signifies it from an early 145 CI turbo engine.
8409 signifies it's from the late 164 CI engines, regardless of HP.

[ponyguru]

Thank you for the diagram of the fuel lines! Seems pretty straightforward to me - I'll check the rubber hoses and fittings at my earliest convenience.

In addition, thank you for translating those numbers! I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the body being produced in the 4th week of may 64' lines up with the May 25th production date on the motor. My intuition tells me that it is (perhaps) the factory motor. I will keep in mind to verify in the future if I have the crank exposed.

Regardless, as Vairguy pointed out, my carbs aren't stock! Is this an issue? Would it be wise to change anything regarding them (After I have checked and sorted the fuel lines)?

P.S. Seriously thank you guys for all of the helpful input. I am not often presented with the opportunity to really dive in and learn about something new. This has so far been an awesome experience. Many of the smells I have smelled while rooting around in this car have reminded me of going on tractor rides with my father on his 1946 ford tractor. That has been uniquely nostalgic.

[bbodie52]

The car is a 1964 Corvair Monza (900?). However, It seems to have a Late model 140 motor in it? Is this a good thing and what do I need to watch out for?
It has a 2 speed Powerglide...

The engine serial number would indicate that it began life as a 1964 (or earlier) engine. All 140hp engines were produced in 1965 or later model years. From 1965-1968, the engine suffix codes all began with the letter "R" 1969 was unique, with suffix codes that began with the letter "A".

If your base engine was the original engine, the engine displacement of 164 CI and the 110hp camshaft grind would be a match for the 140hp engine that was introduced in 1965. One difference that would have likely posed a technical problem with mounting 1965 or later 140hp cylinder heads on a 1964 base engine would be the cylinder barrels used in 1964. The outer cylinder bore (into the cylinder head) in 1964 and earlier engines was 3-3/4". In 1965 and later engines, the cylinder barrel outside diameter (and the associated size of the cylinder head opening and the head gasket) was increased by 1/16" to 3-13/16". The original 1964 engine cylinder barrels would have been slightly small for the 1965 or later heads. I don't know if the mismatch would prevent them from being used in the later-year heads (the inside piston bore was unchanged and remained the same for all stock engines from 1964-1969). If it was a problem the cylinder barrels could have been swapped for 1965 and later cylinder barrels.

As shown in the attached booklet CORSA Corvair Technical Guide 1+2 - Corvair Code Numbers and in the chart below, there were several different 140hp heads that were used between 1965 and 1969. The cylinder head casting numbers on your heads may give some clue as to their original year of production.

Left-click to enlarge for better viewing. Left-click a second time for maximum enlargement.

[66vairguy]

Yes Brad I was also thinking about the 64 "narrow" gasket area vs. the wider gasket area of the newer 140HP heads. I didn't want to overload the guy with possible issues. Some put a spacer around the 64 cylinders to use newer heads (the early 65 cylinders had a spacer band installed at the factory and I've got one of those oddballs). Another possibility is the cylinders from a 65 or newer engine were used. AFAIK they will fit on the 64 block.

As long as it runs fine no point in taking it apart. The comments about it not pulling up hills makes me wonder, then again GM found out the 140HP engine from the manual transmission cars did NOT perform well with the PG transmission. Instead of a revised cam they used the off the shelf 95HP cam, which delivers good low RPM torque, and shifted it's timing by 4 degrees to boost the upper RPM power. It seemed to work, but you ended up with a engine that didn't like to rev above 4,500 RPM and that was fine with the PG but limits power to a guesstimate of 125HP.

However whoever built this engine replaced the cam from previous comments. It is hard to say how this engine works with the PG. An interesting car, but a serious project to convert to a manual. Maybe best to enjoy it as is.

[66vairguy]

Regardless, as Vairguy pointed out, my carbs aren't stock! Is this an issue? Would it be wise to change anything regarding them (After I have checked and sorted the fuel lines)?

The carburetors do appear stock, but for a 1966 Corvair 140HP engine. Possibly the heads are 1966. In 1966 the head castings were changed so A/C brackets could be bolted to them. The engine shroud bolts are larger, that and casting number will tell you if they are 1966 (or newer) heads. Yes the 1965 140HP heads are one year only items. No change in combustion chamber design from 1965 to 1966

One picture shows a tag saying "SILICONE" brake fluid. Whoever did that was a thoughtful person since adding regular DOT 3 fluid could cause issues. UNFORTUNATELY the early silicone brake fluids were not regulated and all kinds of creative stuff was on the market. Now silicone brake fluid is regulated and sold as DOT 5. Even more confusing is the new DOT 5.1 used in ultra performance brake systems that is NOT silicone. The intent of using silicone brake fluid was to prevent rust, but that is a myth as the DOD found out with Army trucks that even silicone brake fluid needs to be changed to keep moisture out of a system. Then racers used a version with higher temperature ratings. Point is if you do not know exactly what silicone version of brake fluid is in the system then I would completely flush it and install DOT 3 (which is compatible with the Corvair brake seal material). Yes DOT 3 has to be changed every 2 to 3 years depending on climate and how long the car sits. The good news is DOT3 actually holds minor amounts in suspension to prevent rust. As long as it is changed before it saturates it will not cause rust.

[ponyguru]

Well, I have been a Corvair owner for about a month now. I have been reading manuals and forum posts (and watching Larry Claypool videos) - I just love how much information exists for these cars. As was recommended, I have checked my brake hardware. I replaced the fluid after blowing out the lines, and adjusted my brakes properly. They feel great now!

I hope to be posting more going forward. Next week is my fall break, so hopefully I can get some news tires on and give it another (neighborhood) road test!

[66vairguy]

Well, I have been a Corvair owner for about a month now. I have been reading manuals and forum posts (and watching Larry Claypool videos) - I just love how much information exists for these cars. As was recommended, I have checked my brake hardware. I replaced the fluid after blowing out the lines, and adjusted my brakes properly. They feel great now!

I hope to be posting more going forward. Next week is my fall break, so hopefully I can get some news tires on and give it another (neighborhood) road test!

Glad it is coming along.

About tires - If you stay with the 13" rims then the only DOT approved CAR tire (plenty of trailer tires - NOT FOR CARS) that is the proper size is the Maxxis 185/80x13" (usually called the MA-1). The company imports these DOT approved tires in batches so sometimes you find them easily, then other times nobody has them. Usually new batches arrive in a month or so. Plan accordingly and ALWAYS ask for the manufacturing date code on the tire!!! While the U.S. does not control new tire sale age like many countries do, it does require manufacturers to stamp the production date on EACH tire. Eight years is considered the practical safe lifespan for a tire, even a tire kept out of the weather or sun. This is why Maaxis does not produce new tires UNTIL the old stock is depleted.

If you go to a 14" or larger diameter rim you will have more tire choices. That said the Maaxis has been a fairly priced tire with a good reputation and is fine. Other older cars (Mercedes-Benz) use this size so it should be around for awhile.

[ponyguru]

Well, I have been a Corvair owner for about a month now. I have been reading manuals and forum posts (and watching Larry Claypool videos) - I just love how much information exists for these cars. As was recommended, I have checked my brake hardware. I replaced the fluid after blowing out the lines, and adjusted my brakes properly. They feel great now!

I hope to be posting more going forward. Next week is my fall break, so hopefully I can get some news tires on and give it another (neighborhood) road test!

Glad it is coming along.

About tires - If you stay with the 13" rims then the only DOT approved CAR tire (plenty of trailer tires - NOT FOR CARS) that is the proper size is the Maxxis 185/80x13" (usually called the MA-1). The company imports these DOT approved tires in batches so sometimes you find them easily, then other times nobody has them. Usually new batches arrive in a month or so. Plan accordingly and ALWAYS ask for the manufacturing date code on the tire!!! While the U.S. does not control new tire sale age like many countries do, it does require manufacturers to stamp the production date on EACH tire. Eight years is considered the practical safe lifespan for a tire, even a tire kept out of the weather or sun. This is why Maaxis does not produce new tires UNTIL the old stock is depleted.

If you go to a 14" or larger diameter rim you will have more tire choices. That said the Maaxis has been a fairly priced tire with a good reputation and is fine. Other older cars (Mercedes-Benz) use this size so it should be around for awhile.

Yes, that is a problem that I have been running into. None of my local tire shops can get a tire in that size. Though - I'm sure I could find them online.
That being said, while I was hoping to use the original wheels I think it probably makes sense to go up to a 14 inch rim for the ease of getting tires going forward. I've read that there are a lot of different 14 inch rims you could mount with not too much fuss. Are there any that you prefer / have used in the past that you think would be available on ebay or something?

[66vairguy]

The EM (60-64) cars used the GM four lug pattern. Some imports used the same bolt pattern size, but I do not have a list handy. The LM (65-69) cars went with the more common GM five lug pattern. Someone here will probably have suggestions.

In the past a few folks have posted their local tire store ordered the Maaxis tires without issue, but as I said, sometimes the stock dries up for a few weeks while the latest shipment is in transit.

About tires. Today there are so many different rim sizes and tire types and now the EV cars get "special" tires since they weight as much as a BIG pickup truck and need lower rolling resistance. Point here is the proliferation of different tire sizes and types only ensures going to the tire store to buy off the rack will only get more difficult. Basically you'll have to "order" your tires and wait for shipment from the central facility.

I run 14" rims with a wider tire on the rear. The front tires were available in a day. The rears were a three day wait. I told them I would not take a tire more than a year old!

The 15" tire size supply is about the same now as the 14's.

Some run bigger rims with "rubber band" low profile tires, but the ride quality is poor, to put it nicely.

[ponyguru]

Roughly six months later update!
I have been coming back to this project regularly, but progress was pretty slow. Using guides posted here I have been able to troubleshoot all of my problems!
Ultimately fueling was my biggest issue. I found that my secondary carbs were missing parts! and that my primary carbs were pretty rough too. I ended up going with block-off plates for my secondary carbs to convert my car back to a more "factory" power output. I got new 64' carbs and some fancy intakes for my primary carbs. This ended up being kind of expensive, but I have been very pleased with how it runs and drives!

[bbodie52]

Looks pretty good! The modified PCV system configuration appears to duplicate the standard setup used in 1964-1965 (as long as there is a fixed orifice restricting the tube connected to the vacuum balance tube, and the other hose is connected to an air filter input to the carburetor). Are you running a dual muffler exhaust exiting the 140 hp big valve heads? Assuming a stock 110hp/140hp camshaft, the engine output should be something more than 110hp, but the top end something less than what would be expected from a 140hp engine with secondary carburetors. Coupled with a Powerglide automatic, you wll probably find the engine very driveable and well-behaved, and easier to tune than the 140 hp 4x1 arrangement.

So how do you like driving your Corvair so far?

[ponyguru]

I am still running the dual exhaust and the 140 heads, but everything seems to behave very well.
I have driven it around town a few times, but I have been very gentle on the gas and haven't got it above about 40. It handles and drives like a dream. People love seeing it, and it often feels nice to be popular.
Soon, I hope to get on the highway and see how and if my transmission shifts to 2nd. If it does, I am pretty sorted mechanically and can move on to a new top and paint! (I plan to completely diy the paint. Researching options currently.)