1964 Monza Sedan

[66vairguy]

DB I sent you a PM about the camber eccentrics.

[JohnDB]

DB I sent you a PM about the camber eccentrics.

Got your PM, and I had also confirmed with one of the Philadelphia club members that it is indeed a late model cross member with early model spindles and brakes. Should be all good in a few weeks when it is ready for an alignment.

And today was a big day - the car is legal again in PA, passed safety inspection with flying colors:

The shop saw no need to remove the 1976 sticker and put the current sticker next to it, happy to keep some of the history with the car.

I've got my daily packed up with some parts for sale, and hoping to find a good deal on wheels and tires tomorrow at the LVCC swap meet: https://www.corvair.org/chapters/lvcc/swap_meet.htm

[Project65]

That’s really great John! Congratulations! A friend of mine is going to the swap meet. I was tempted to go but can’t make it. Good luck selling!

The ‘76 inspection sticker is cool. Glad your windshield is still in great original condition.

[66vairguy]

Got your PM, and I had also confirmed with one of the Philadelphia club members that it is indeed a late model cross member with early model spindles and brakes. Should be all good in a few weeks when it is ready for an alignment.

Glad it is working out. I think you'll be happy with the bigger LM sway bar. When you get it on the road let us know how it handles. With the 64 rear suspension it will be about a good as an EM can get without major modifications. You've got a nice setup.

[JohnDB]

Glad it is working out. I think you'll be happy with the bigger LM sway bar. When you get it on the road let us know how it handles. With the 64 rear suspension it will be about a good as an EM can get without major modifications. You've got a nice setup.

We put about 50 miles on it yesterday, it handles pretty well! Will be much better with new tires that aren't too small and a good alignment

That’s really great John! Congratulations! A friend of mine is going to the swap meet. I was tempted to go but can’t make it. Good luck selling!

The ‘76 inspection sticker is cool. Glad your windshield is still in great original condition.

Had a great day at the swap meet, was able to sell a few things, and barter a few things. Ended up with a really nice set of Western Wheels aluminum slots in 14" x 5.5", should be perfect for the Monza - also got a great deal on a rear bumper without a dent that should clean up nicely:

Already ordered a set of lug nuts, and need to call the local tire shop on Monday and see what deals they can get us on some 195/70 14 tires (pretty much the same overall size to stock 13" tires from what I see online)

[66vairguy]

Check our stock Corvair wheel back spacing against you new aluminum rims. From that you can see if there is any change in wheel "offset". A 1/2" change to moving the center of the tire outward from the center of the car is tolerable, but it will change the scrub radius. Not ideal, but works.

I gave up on alignment shops. They NEVER want to do the caster adjustment. The early Mustangs (and cars like the old ChevyII) use a single lower suspension arm with a rod back to the cross-member (or forward in a Mustang). Nothing wrong with this design, BUT the caster is adjusted by nuts on the control rod AND THEY RUST SOLID. So the alignment shops will not touch them since if you strip the threads you have to remove the rod and have it fixed or replaced. You'd think the alignment shops would warn you the bill could go up a lot if the caster has to be adjusted, but NO they are in competition for business and don't want to scare folks off. So they just DO NOT do it.

If you caster is fine it is not a problem. I had installed a new cleaned an painted front suspension and everything needed to by adjusted. I told the shop manager that everything needed to be adjusted and if he needed to charge more than the flat rate I understood. I watched the guy adjust things and I said - "You did not adjust the caster". He replied it was good, didn't need adjustment. He was lying

I drove the car for a few months and it wandered and the steering effort was high. This is when others told me few shops will do the caster on Corvairs or Mustangs. I set up own equipment (not easy and time consuming with basic tools). The caster was way off!!!! I got everything to spec., but I learned with wider tires or/and non-stock offset rims, you need to go with the minimum caster. Now my car tracks fine and steers easily. Just my experience.

[bbodie52]

[JohnDB]

Check our stock Corvair wheel back spacing against you new aluminum rims. From that you can see if there is any change in wheel "offset". A 1/2" change to moving the center of the tire outward from the center of the car is tolerable, but it will change the scrub radius. Not ideal, but works.

I gave up on alignment shops. They NEVER want to do the caster adjustment. The early Mustangs (and cars like the old ChevyII) use a single lower suspension arm with a rod back to the cross-member (or forward in a Mustang). Nothing wrong with this design, BUT the caster is adjusted by nuts on the control rod AND THEY RUST SOLID. So the alignment shops will not touch them since if you strip the threads you have to remove the rod and have it fixed or replaced. You'd think the alignment shops would warn you the bill could go up a lot if the caster has to be adjusted, but NO they are in competition for business and don't want to scare folks off. So they just DO NOT do it.

If you caster is fine it is not a problem. I had installed a new cleaned an painted front suspension and everything needed to by adjusted. I told the shop manager that everything needed to be adjusted and if he needed to charge more than the flat rate I understood. I watched the guy adjust things and I said - "You did not adjust the caster". He replied it was good, didn't need adjustment. He was lying

I drove the car for a few months and it wandered and the steering effort was high. This is when others told me few shops will do the caster on Corvairs or Mustangs. I set up own equipment (not easy and time consuming with basic tools). The caster was way off!!!! I got everything to spec., but I learned with wider tires or/and non-stock offset rims, you need to go with the minimum caster. Now my car tracks fine and steers easily. Just my experience.

The alignment part I'm not worried about, there is a fellow member in the Philadelphia club with an alignment rack in his home garage - he's also got a '64 and did a fantastic job on my '66 last year, including correcting the caster.

The backspacing part could be a bit interesting, I might have been a little bit too quick on these wheels - since they are 5.5" wide I figured it wouldn't be a problem. I measured them today and they are only 3" backspace - and a test fit on the rear puts them very close to the fender. Still need to check on tires, but it might just barely fit. Worst case I might have to roll the lip a bit, and I'm also going to check with a few guys at work about machining a little bit off the wheels, I think a quarter inch or even a little less would make everything work pretty well.

[66vairguy]

I found an old article on Corvair rims. Keep in mind backspace is commonly used since it is easier to measure and understand. The problem with backspace is it not exact since it measures from the rim area that touches the brake drum to the rim edge and the not so accurate rim edge which I've seen vary by 1/4"! The bead surface must be true and accurate, but not the rim "edge". Also the rim edge of an alloy wheel may be thicker.

Technically offset is correct,but it is difficult to measure.

The EM 13" wheel is reported to be 5-1/2" wide with a negative 1" offset (per GM) and an approximate 3-7/8" backspace, meaning the center of the wheel (and tire) is 1" closer to the center of the car vs. the outside fender edge. Remember a 5-1/2" is bead to bead of the rim results in about 6" wide rim edge to edge. Put another way - a negative 1" offset results in a 4" backspace (6" wide edge to edge rim) and 2" to the other side for a total of 6" with a negative 1" offset. Confused? So are a lot of folks and why almost everyone ,except engineers, use backspace even though it is a little less accurate.

Your 3" backspace alloy wheels (about 6" wide edge to edge) have a centered offset of zero (3" to each side of center). The will be about 1" further from the center of the car to the outside of the fender vs. the stock rim. Not great for wheel suspension geometry (or fender clearance), but a lot of folks have done it. For normal driving it is usually not an issue. Some roll the fender edges to clear the tire.

BTW the article mentions a lot of 70's Japanese cars had 4 lug 13" wheels with a backspace close to the Corvair. In the 80's they were easy to find, not so much now. I hope this was more helpful than confusing.

[bbodie52]

I believe the link below will take you to the article referred to above...

Sizing Corvair Wheels and Tires

http://autoxer.skiblack.com/tires.html

[JohnDB]

After a very relaxing vacation last week, it was time to get back to business. Today I was able to swap the rear shocks. I picked up some NOS Sears shocks a few weeks back at the swap meet:

The passenger side went really well, didn't even have to hold the top of the shaft to remove the nut, it just backed right off. New shock jumped right in and we're all good! New vs. old shot, all the rubber parts on the old shocks were done - they weren't leaking, but they bounced a lot:

The drivers side put up a fight, and I had to get the dremel out with the cutoff wheel to split the nut - wasn't too bad overall:

All back together:

Lug nuts for the aluminum slots came in last week, so I had to do a test fit - it's going to be close...

But look fantastic!

The local tire shop has been awesome and ordered a single 195/70/14 so that I can test fit, and if it doesn't work they can send it back and we can try again. Hopefully it will be here Monday! According to the online calculators, the overall diameter should be the same as the "factory" 13" tires.

And yes, she has started to mark her spot a bit with some oil drips now that we've put on a few miles. I re-tightened the oil pan bolts, but won't be surprised if it needs a new pan gasket. There is nothing coming from above the pan though, so I'll take it!

[66vairguy]

Glad it's coming along. That is a clean undercarriage. It looks like someone has put some work into the car.

Most 60's cars, especially a Corvair, will drip a little oil. Get one of the huge metal "cookie sheets" with a rim and slide it under the rear of the car. Your garage concrete will thank you - LOL. Not so common no, but back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's most of the auto parts stores had them.

[Project65]

I was also thinking the same thing about how clean that car is. Amazing! Hopefully the wheels work out.

[JohnDB]

Glad it's coming along. That is a clean undercarriage. It looks like someone has put some work into the car.

Most 60's cars, especially a Corvair, will drip a little oil. Get one of the huge metal "cookie sheets" with a rim and slide it under the rear of the car. Your garage concrete will thank you - LOL. Not so common no, but back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's most of the auto parts stores had them.

My 1/2 sheet baking pan is currently under the trans on this car, you can see the edges in a few of the pictures, but I have a good supply of cardboard from work to catch the oil spills :) There is a place called The Restaurant Store not too far away, the 1/2 sheet pans are about $12 and are very nice to have around!

The tire that I ordered for test fit came in this week and I was able to get it mounted up. It looks great on the wheel, but I didn't have much hope for a fit when I left the tire shop. A quick swap on the right rear and there is no way these wheels are going to work - I don't think I lowered the jack more than 1/4 inch before it hit the fender:

I'll have these wheels up for sale shortly, and I ended up ordering some 13" tires so we can keep putting miles on the car, it seems to be enjoying it!

The weather was great today so we took the Monza for its car show debut (and the Corsa went along too):

Had a lot of fun talking to folks about the cars and the Monza got a ton of attention!

[66vairguy]

I've been told the EM rear wheel well is snug compared to the LM rear wheel well.

Glad the car is getting attention at shows. It is a nice looking car and for decades few fixed up a four door (any model or brand). Now a four door is a novelty at a car show. I have a convertible, but I have more fun with my 66 four door at shows and coffee meets.

[bbodie52]

The local tire shop has been awesome and ordered a single 195/70/14 so that I can test fit, and if it doesn't work they can send it back and we can try again. Hopefully it will be here Monday! According to the online calculators, the overall diameter should be the same as the "factory" 13" tires.

When comparing the BF Goodrich Radial T/A P205/70 R14 with the Advanta tire of the same size, they both have the same overall diameter and section width. The BF Goodrich Radial T/A has already been shown to fit successfully on all four corners of a Late Model Corvair. The tire size you selected is slightly smaller. Either tire will fit with adequate clearance on a LM Corvair, when mounted on a wheel with 4 inch backspacing in size 7x14. However, the Advanta tire spec for rim width range indicates it is not suitable for a 7" rim width in size 195/70 R14. The 205/70 R14 would be needed to mount properly on a 7" rim.

If your rims had 4" backspacing with the smaller tire size and rim width, the smaller tire would likely work on your EM Corvair. However, with only 3" backspacing, they would probable stick out too far and not fit (as previously mentioned).



1966 Corvair Corsa Tires and Wheels
2-Door Convertible
Tire and Wheel Upgrade Data
Current Tire Product and Size:
Front: Goodyear Eagle ST P195/70 R14
Overall Diameter: 24.8" Revs per Mile: 839 Sect. Width: 7.9" Tread Width: 6.1"
Rear: Goodyear Eagle ST P235/60 R14
Overall Diameter: 25.1" Revs per Mile: 829 Sect. Width 9.5" Tread Width 8.7"

Front: BF Goodrich Radial T/A P205/70 R14 ($119.45 each) $141.31 as of 9/13/2020 5-7” Rim
Overall Diameter: 25.4" Revs per Mile: 821 Sect. Width: 8.2” Tread Width: 6.2"
Rear: BF Goodrich Radial T/A P235/60 R14 ($132.45 each) $156.11 as of 9/13/2020 6.5-8.5” Rim
Overall Diameter: 25.1" Revs per Mile: 829 Sect. Width 9.5" Tread Width 7.9"
The ideal tire diameter produces 825 revolutions per mile but can go to 850 revolutions per mile and the speedometer only be 3% fast, or 2 MPH at 60.

P205/70R14
93S SL
400 A B
1,433 lbs 35 psi 12/32" 23 lbs 5-7" 6" 8.2" 6.2" 25.4" 821 MX

P235/60R14
96S SL
400 A B
1,565 lbs 35 psi 11/32" 26 lbs 6.5-8.5" 7" 9.5" 7.9" 25.1" 829 MX