Installing valve guides ?

[acarlson]

I posted this on the other forum and the replies I got didn't really answer my question...

It turns out that i have worn valve guides in my turbo engine. I'll need to replace some of them. According to some GM documentation, the head should be heated to 450* before installing seats, guides or exhaust sleeves. Have you found that that is necessary ? The '65 GM service manual doesn't mention heating the head for valve guide removal or installation...

[Wagon Master]

Don't do it!
The way the heads were made, there's very little chance that the valve guide i.d. and o.d. are concentric.
Most use inserts, k-liners or replace the guides along with high press seats.

[flat6_musik]

All I can tell you is to.....use a reputable shop that is corvair-knowledgable to do your head work. Take it from me, I learned the hard way.....I rebuilt my '65 turbo corsa engine completely and had less than 1000 miles on it, when it suddenly started acting weird and blowing some smoke. Turns out that a few of the bronze valve guides that were installed at a local, supposedly "VW knowledgable" shop......started sliding in and out of the head while the engine was running! The end result? Small pieces started breaking off the bronze guide at the valve end, and got blown up into my new turbo. The other damage was to the piston tops and cylinder head combustion chamber roof. A lot of little pitting but no major damage. The turbo cost me another $600 to get re-done. That really bummed me out because when I first rebuilt the motor, I did so very carefully and meticulously.

There are some very reputable places out there that you can trust. My heads went to Engine Machine Service in Inglewood, CA to take care of the damaged heads the second time around. Good luck with your project!

[terribleted]

All I can tell you is to.....use a reputable shop that is corvair-knowledgable to do your head work. Take it from me, I learned the hard way.....I rebuilt my '65 turbo corsa engine completely and had less than 1000 miles on it, when it suddenly started acting weird and blowing some smoke. Turns out that a few of the bronze valve guides that were installed at a local, supposedly "VW knowledgable" shop......started sliding in and out of the head while the engine was running! The end result? Small pieces started breaking off the bronze guide at the valve end, and got blown up into my new turbo. The other damage was to the piston tops and cylinder head combustion chamber roof. A lot of little pitting but no major damage. The turbo cost me another $600 to get re-done. That really bummed me out because when I first rebuilt the motor, I did so very carefully and meticulously.

There are some very reputable places out there that you can trust. My heads went to Engine Machine Service in Inglewood, CA to take care of the damaged heads the second time around. Good luck with your project!

Ditto this. Average machine shops may for instance cut the head gasket seat flat in the head by using the valve cover rail as a reference. This results in the gasket seat area not being machined true and heads that sit cockeyed on the cylinders. I had a set done locally by a shop that was sure it was no issue to do them and ended up with the top of my carbs being almost 3/8" too close together due to the heads being tipped in at the top from this. I had to benlt sand the carb spacers into wedges in order tip the tops of the carbs out again to get the air cleaner cross tube to mount. The heads ran fine, but, a Corvair knowledgeable head man is what you want.

Actually all aspects of Corvair engine rebuilding might need a Corvair pro? Back in the 870's I had machine work done by a well renowned machine shop in my area. They were to hone the 60 over cylinders and match the good used 60 over pistons to them. They were to inform me if any cylinder to piston clearances were too great so i could get different cylinders that would be in spec. I picked up my parts with assurances that every thing was good. I assembled the engine carefully and after 50 or so miles of use it started blowing oil smoke like crazy. On teardown I found piston to cylinder clearances between 6 and 10 thousands of an inch, way to large for a Corvair engine. The piston rings had rotated from their installed position so that all the ring gaps were aligned at the bottom of each cylinder hence the lack of oil control. That one cost me of a bunch of time , a set of good forged pistons (they got scored from running with too much clearance), a set of rings, and a a set of cylinders (these were likely to big in the first place to reuse).

[bbodie52]

» Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:47 am

All I can tell you is to.....use a reputable shop that is Corvair-knowledgeable to do your head work. Take it from me, I learned the hard way...

...There are some very reputable places out there that you can trust. My heads went to Engine Machine Service in Inglewood, CA to take care of the damaged heads the second time around. Good luck with your project!

Has anyone ever seen a comprehensive database, or listing, of established, reputable Corvair machine shops and/or mechanics who are considered to be proven Corvair-qualified technicians? So far, I have not. Yet it seems that there is certainly a need for this type of database nationwide to assist Corvair owners in locating the technically-qualified and proven technical support that Corvair owners and enthusiasts need. I would be willing to develop and maintain such a listing, if feedback from Corvair owners could be provided to help in gathering such information.

The information below is what I could find via

Engine Machine Services Automotive Machine & Shop Service in Inglewood, CA
Address: 827 (835?) W Olive St, Inglewood, CA 90301 [UNVERIFIED]
Phone: (310) 641-7019
eMail: bduncan@enginemachineservice.com

4.4 STARS, 7 reviews https://www.google.com/search?q=Engine+ ... a89a5,1,,,

[flat6_musik]

E.M.S. is well-known in corvair circles. I also just had them completely refurbish an extra set of 140 heads, just in case their corvair machinist Bruce retires. Check it out:

http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,634992

[bbodie52]

http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.ph ... 992,page=1

Date: July 23, 2013 06:49PM

For many years the primary head rebuilder in So Cal for both dealers and
individuals is:

Engine Machine Service
8416 Osage Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90045
Phone 310- 641-7019, fax 310-1641-4958

Engine Machine Service
835 W. Olive, Inglewood, CA
310-641-7019

Recently they did a total rebuild of a pair of turbo heads for $980.61,
including parts, labor and tax. The shop is close to 405 near LAX.

Included was cleaning, valve job, surface head, r&r valve guides and seats,
install helicoils, and mill gasket rails.

Parts included seals, guides, intake and exhaust valves, springs and seals.

EMS personnel have rebuilt hundreds of Corvair heads. I would use no other shop
in Southern California.

Jack Pinard
64 Spyder, 64 Greenbrier, 66 Monza, 66 Corsa, "97" Race Car

Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: July 24, 2013 09:51AM

I started calling machine shops in L.A. about Corvair head work and one shop said “Call Bruce at Engine Machine Shop, he does all the Corvair head work”. So I went and talked to Bruce and he was very knowledgeable and showed me a pair of heads someone brought in that were ruined by another shop and what to look for in used heads. I asked for references and he said to call Jeff at Calif. Corvairs. Jeff said he’s never had problems with Bruce’s head repairs, but he’s not cheap. So don’t expect a bargain, but Bruce has a good reputation.

The shop mostly works on old car engines and exotic foreign engines. Bruce is the ONLY one who does Corvair work at the shop so you have to ask for him.

Engine Machine Service
835 W. Olive, Inglewood, CA
310-641-7019

BTW - Bruce does a "stock" rebuild, he likes to drop the CR half a point on 140 heads due to the lower octane fuels. If you want "squish" heads, a specific CC value, special valves, special valve springs for hi-lift cams you have to ask.

There are many Corvair owners around the USA and in Canada and other locations who may not know where to look for such services. I have been around Corvairs for many years, and was originally from California, yet this is the first time I have heard of them. I would imagine there are other good Corvair machine shops around the USA, but many who live in rural areas, or in areas where there is no CORSA club chapter, etc. may not know where to look for such valuable services. I believe this is the first time I have seen them mentioned on the Corvair Forum. So I still believe that a comprehensive listing of good Corvair mechanics, good Corvair machine shops who can do quality work on Corvair heads, good mechanics who can repair Corvair manual transmissions, Corvair differentials, Corvair Powerglide transmissions, etc., and good wheel alignment shops who can deal with Corvairs would be valuable to many Corvair owners.

There are two addresses given on the website link you provided. The one at 8416 Osage Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90045 is now indicated to be called Durkee Performance, and they are indicated on their Facebook website to be "Air cooled VW repair, service and engine building" specialists. They don't mention Corvairs. The photograph on the Engine Machine Service, 835 W. Olive, Inglewood, CA address (shown below) is of a building with no business sign or markings at all! So the information available on the Corvair Forum, Corvair Center, etc. is dated and may not be current or easy to locate. I still believe that a good, comprehensive listing on the CORSA website, Corvair Forum, etc that covers resources around the country would be very helpful!


835 W. Olive, Inglewood, CA

[flat6_musik]

Yes, that's the place! (Ignore the L.A.address on Osage) I was a little befuddled when I arrived there.....but they assured me to "drive down the driveway and around back". Of course, the gate is usually open. No signs that I saw anywhere. Here's a few more reviews from a Porsche forum @ E.M.S.....you'll have to scroll down a bit on them:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engi ... -area.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... to-ca.html

Engine Machine Service2.jpg (27.66 KiB) Viewed 958 times

[chris]

I don’t really mean to resurrect an older thread, but my question pertains to removing/installing valve guides. On Corvair heads, do you remove the guide from the valve spring side (pushing it down into the combustion chamber side)? And then install from the combustion chamber side? Or do I have it backwards? Does it even matter which way they’re removed and installed?

[joelsplace]

I don't know the answer to your question but it is generally accepted that it is better to install liners because the guide's OD and ID aren't concentric. Supposedly they installed them and then bored them to make the valve be in the right place.

[chris]

Unfortunately, I can’t do liners because the guides are cracked (previously knurled). I was hoping liners would’ve been an option though.

[chris]

Whoops, double post.

[66vairguy]

I don't know the answer to your question but it is generally accepted that it is better to install liners because the guide's OD and ID aren't concentric. Supposedly they installed them and then bored them to make the valve be in the right place.

I've always read that the Corvair factory guides were cast in place and might not align with the valve axis. Knowing this GM made the guides with a smaller bore than the valve stem diameter and THEN they bored the guide to align with the seats.

EMC in Inglewood, CA closed down last year. Bruce at EMC did all the Porche and Corvair head work and the rumor from the SCC folks is Bruce is trying to find another place to work from. Bruce rebuilt Corvair heads for many, including vendors, for decades and I've never heard of anyone having a problem with his heads.

I wish I could recommend a shop to do Corvair heads, but at this time I don't know of any that have a history of reliable work. As folks have posted here over the years --- plenty of shops claim they can, then mess up the heads!!!

Unless you are experienced and have the equipment, I would NOT attempt to replace the valve guides.

[toms73novass]

As for removing guides. I find the best way is to make the guide level inside the chambers. I use a endmill or a piloted counterbore tool. In the past I found if driving into the chamber it can take part of the aluminum casting with it because it is not fully supported. Then heat the head to 375 and drive out with "finch" tool.

To insert make sure that the bore for the guide is consistent, I use gage pins. .5155 is usually what I find. I then insert a .002-.0025 oversize bronze guide from the top with .800 left exposed. I usually order oversized and turn down on my lathe to .0025.

I then do head work, weld up step for .035-.040 quench and then install new deep valve seats.

So, to do the job properly it takes some equipment.

Guide sleeves have to be used if keeping original seats. I have a set of heads where someone replaced guides and not seats and I have never seen so much carbon because I'm sure they could not get valves to seat.

PS. I don't do work for others right now, still don't even have time for all of my projects.......

American Flat 6 does great work, also Ken Hand in Michigan does heads and there are others in corvair community who know what to look for when doing heads so you don't have fitment issues on reinstall.

[chris]

Thanks everyone. Initially, I'm just planning on ordering a few guides and using a junk head to try removing/installing them. I planned on using the method of drilling out the old guides to make them come out easy (per the tech guides) and heating head/freezing guide for install. It probably won't go well, so it's more for the sake of trying it and experimenting. I was planning on taking the actual heads to a shop I've used before (and in reality, still am planning on it) but they've been so backed up that I don't know how long it'll take.

[vairmech]

If you are planning on drilling get yourself a "core" drill. then you can remove the guide with no issues. One thing to do is give the guide a good tap, does it move? If so keep going. I also have made special install tools so I can get the correct intake depth. 140 and then the others are different! The exhaust I use a grade a8 flat washer for a stop as they are flush with the head.

Keep in mind that there is also bronze guide liners but that is a bit of a specialty and not an affordable kit for the one time person.

LOL, I told tom'sNovass how to do a lot of this stuff. But he is a good machinist in his own right.