New video and article about Corvairs as one car accident

[JasonL]

https://jalopnik.com/brave-man-tries-to ... 1820521301

Here is a new video and article that I found interesting and thought would be of interest to the Forum members.

Click the link of copy and paste it to your address bar.

[bbodie52]

Brave Man Tries To Roll Himself Over In A Corvair And Miraculously Lives

Stef Schrader
5:15pmFiled to: CHEVROLET CORVAIR

The Corvair is sadly best known for the chapter dedicated to it in Ralph Nader’s pearl-clutching automotive safety tome Unsafe At Any Speed. Nader criticized the rear-wheel drive compact harshly, calling it a “one-car accident.” So, Hagerty’s Larry Webster set out to try to roll one on its roof—and lived.

Prior to all the controversy, the Corvair was America’s lone attempt at a rear-engined, aircooled car, smaller like its European rivals and aimed squarely at conquering the compact car market. Nader’s harsh critique dropped sales in half the year after Nader maligned the car before Congress.

So, what better way to prove Nader wrong than in a Corvair Nader himself owned? Hagerty didn’t just seek out the Corvair’s story and General Motors’ defense of its design from engineers who worked on it and enthusiasts who love them, but they drove it. One of those enthusiasts had a perfectly maintained example of the Corvair for just the job.

Did he die? Nope. It even looks like Hagerty host Larry Webster had fun.

I’m sure there are ways he could have rolled it if he really wanted to, like wedging a Miata under the rear bumper like a spatula or launching it incorrectly off some sweet jumps. But if you know what to expect when you drive a rear-engined car, you’re pretty safe on your own out on normal roads using the Corvair for its intended grocery-getting purposes.

Former GM engineer and fifteen-Corvair owner Peter Koehler nailed it: Nader wrote about the Corvair in a way that sold books and got attention. While many of Nader’s other criticisms led to safer, cleaner cars, it’s a pity that GM’s good, cheap small car was tossed aside even after Chevy ditched its rear swing axle.

https://jalopnik.com/brave-man-tries-to ... 1820521301

[ldeboe01]

From 1967 to 1973 I worked as a technician for GM at the Milford Michigan proving grounds. I worked for a department that was then known as Experimental Engineering. Within our department there was a group that did most of the high speed motion picture photography for the 5 major GM divisions. (Chevrolet GMC, Buick Pontiac and Cadillac). I became good friends with one of the photographers in that group. Keep in mind that the following was what this person told me. I have no way of knowing how accurate his statements were, although I never had reason to doubt anything he told me. This person told me that the video that Mr. Nader had possession of was shot by my friend at the GM Proving grounds. I believe that this video showed the Corvair rolling over in a hard turn. According to my friend the real purpose of this video was to determine what would happed if a retail customer would inadvertently misread the tire pressure recommendations, and pressure the front tires with the recommended rear tire pressure recommendations and vice-a-versa. In that scenario it evidently WAS possible to roll the vehicle.

Why GM never tried to defend the Corvair and let the public know what the video was showing is beyond me. Perhaps the Corvair was already on the chopping block by that time. For whatever reason they chose not to tell that story.

As a youngster in 1960, my dad, who was a Chevy dealer at that time, let me have the use of the first 1960 Corvair. I even passed my drivers test in that Corvair. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the Corvair.

[66vairguy]

From 1967 to 1973 I worked as a technician for GM at the Milford Michigan proving grounds. I worked for a department that was then known as Experimental Engineering. Within our department there was a group that did most of the high speed motion picture photography for the 5 major GM divisions. (Chevrolet GMC, Buick Pontiac and Cadillac). I became good friends with one of the photographers in that group. Keep in mind that the following was what this person told me. I have no way of knowing how accurate his statements were, although I never had reason to doubt anything he told me. This person told me that the video that Mr. Nader had possession of was shot by my friend at the GM Proving grounds. I believe that this video showed the Corvair rolling over in a hard turn. According to my friend the real purpose of this video was to determine what would happed if a retail customer would inadvertently misread the tire pressure recommendations, and pressure the front tires with the recommended rear tire pressure recommendations and vice-a-versa. In that scenario it evidently WAS possible to roll the vehicle.

Why GM never tried to defend the Corvair and let the public know what the video was showing is beyond me. Perhaps the Corvair was already on the chopping block by that time. For whatever reason they chose not to tell that story.

As a youngster in 1960, my dad, who was a Chevy dealer at that time, let me have the use of the first 1960 Corvair. I even passed my drivers test in that Corvair. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the Corvair.

That's interesting. GM kept a low profile regarding the Corvair after the authorities caught private detectives hired by GM following Nader. To be fair there was a misunderstanding between GM management, staff, and the hired detectives. Anyway, damage done and GM just kept quiet and let the lawyers handle Corvair things. Also it's been written in a few Corvair books that the GM engineers originally wanted a sway bar up front, but someone came up with the low front tire pressure as a lower cost solution to improve handling. So the whole tire pressure fiasco could have been minimized, or maybe avoided, with a front sway bar (which did end up being installed on later cars). So talk of tire pressure by GM was minimal least GM would be accused of putting profits before safety. It didn't help that most other cars could tolerate the same front and rear tire pressures.

[skipvair]

Who here has actually read the one chapter in that book dedicated to Corvairs?


Sent from my iPhone using Corvair Forum mobile app

[terribleted]

Who here has actually read the one chapter in that book dedicated to Corvairs?


Sent from my iPhone using Corvair Forum mobile app

<---raises hand. I have read the book I own it. Lots of comment on thing that truly helped lead to safer cars. The shock value chapter about the Corvair was overblown and the best (least dry) reading in the whole book.

[scottymac]

"Who here has actually read the one chapter in that book dedicated to Corvairs?"

I own the book, and have read the chapter, too, but it may have been well after I killed someone in a Corvair. I worked at an Amoco service station 1968' - '69; Sohio (Standard Oil of Ohio; big pay raise $1.25 to $1.69 per hour!) gas station after school my senior year and until 1974, as a second job. Buddy pump jockey said someone wants air pressure checked, unless they ask for something different, fill them to 30 front and rear, and don't worry about it. Tire pressure sticker, who knew?
Scott

[joelsplace]

Also it's been written in a few Corvair books that the GM engineers originally wanted a sway bar up front, but someone came up with the low front tire pressure as a lower cost solution to improve handling. So the whole tire pressure fiasco could have been minimized, or maybe avoided, with a front sway bar (which did end up being installed on later cars).

The front sway bar did not change the need for a pressure differential.
The Volkswagen Touareg call for 10psi less in the front.

[66vairguy]

Also it's been written in a few Corvair books that the GM engineers originally wanted a sway bar up front, but someone came up with the low front tire pressure as a lower cost solution to improve handling. So the whole tire pressure fiasco could have been minimized, or maybe avoided, with a front sway bar (which did end up being installed on later cars).

The front sway bar did not change the need for a pressure differential.
The Volkswagen Touareg call for 10psi less in the front.

Perhaps not, but with the sway bar the Corvair did handle better if the front tire pressure was NOT as low as specified. Corvair books document that the Corvair engineers argued against removing the sway bar as it would be detrimental to handling and made the car more sensitive to tire pressure. As ideaboe1 said "The Nader video proved higher front tire pressure could result in a rollover."

It would be interesting to see a 64 Corvair with the same pressure in the front and rear tires pushed around on a skid pad. I doubt it would roll like the 60's models could. Would be nice to find out.

Too bad Nader doesn't do a book on today's ridiculously complicated, and different from car to the next, automotive controls. Jeep round shifter knob causing Jeeps to not go into park and run folks over comes to mind. I rented a car with "touch screen" and it took me five minutes of menu diving to get the A/C turned. The wiper stalk was opposite my car - GRRRRRRR!

[RexJohnson]

I wouldn't trust any Ralph Nader video as proof of how a Corvair handles. That would be like using a video made by Ford proving that the Falcone handled better than the Corvair.

[Nashfan]

I run 40 psi front and rear on my 63 Spyder- it stays very flat in a corner and exhibits very little oversteer. I've had an opportunity to compare how it handles against a Pontiac Sunfire, Ford Escort, Mazda 626, Toyota Carolla, Oldsmobile Alero. ALL have a nasty quick oversteer, and because of the mushy soft tire pressures have a huge amount of body lean when they oversteer like that. These are all front engine, front wheel drive cars. The only thing that has been noticeably better with all of these cars is that they feel a heck of a lot nicer when hitting bumps and pot holes. Other than that, they basically handle like crap, and even worse when theres snow and ice on the roads. The combination of 175/70-13 tires and 40psi tire pressures, 2 degrees negative camber on the rears and the spyder factory front sway bar counts for WAY more than engine placement and suspension type.

[RexJohnson]

The Hagerty story about Corvair handling is "Will the Corvair kill you".

[joelsplace]

I run 40 psi front and rear on my 63 Spyder- it stays very flat in a corner and exhibits very little oversteer. I've had an opportunity to compare how it handles against a Pontiac Sunfire, Ford Escort, Mazda 626, Toyota Carolla, Oldsmobile Alero. ALL have a nasty quick oversteer, and because of the mushy soft tire pressures have a huge amount of body lean when they oversteer like that. These are all front engine, front wheel drive cars. The only thing that has been noticeably better with all of these cars is that they feel a heck of a lot nicer when hitting bumps and pot holes. Other than that, they basically handle like crap, and even worse when theres snow and ice on the roads. The combination of 175/70-13 tires and 40psi tire pressures, 2 degrees negative camber on the rears and the spyder factory front sway bar counts for WAY more than engine placement and suspension type.

That is really strange. I've never driven any of those specific vehicles but everything I have driven from the 70s 80s and 90s had severe understeer except Corvettes and Fieros which were neutral to mild understeer. I like oversteer better than understeer so I naturally was drawn to Corvairs. All of them I've driven had very severe oversteer with equal tire pressures, oversteer with 10 less in the front and much less oversteer by '64.

[American Mel]

"The Nader video proved higher front tire pressure could result in a rollover."
NO.
The Nader video showed that higher front tire pressure COMBINED with LOW rear tire pressure COULD result in a rollover.
Scottymac has confirmed one of my biggest suspicions for many years.
Gas Station Attendants are likely to blame for most of the bad experiences commonly spoken about when ever "Poor Handling" Corvairs are talked about.

[joelsplace]

When I was buying my '64 convertible I test drove it with around 15 psi in the rear and a lot more in the front. It was scary at 30mph but I don't see how it could have rolled. I've looped many many times in a Corvair and never even had one on two wheels.

[bbodie52]

This subject matter reminded me of a scary experience I had as a teen when driving a One Car Accident Corvair! Here is something to consider when mixing tire types (e.g. RADIAL tires on one axle and BIAS PLY tires on the other axle).

I accidently discovered this issue at age 16 when I was servicing the 1965 Corvair Corsa convertible that belonged to my parents. I changed the oil and filter and tuned the engine. MY FINAL ( thoughtful, helpful) STEP WAS TO ROTATE THE TIRES. My father had a pair of radial tires mounted on the rear, and a pair of bias-ply tires mounted on the front axle of that Corvair. I really didn't know the difference, and to promote even tire wear I simply rotated the tires — PLACING THE RADIALS ON THE FRONT AXLE AND THE BIAS-PLY TIRES ON THE REAR. I knew about the difference in tire pressures assigned to the front vs. rear on a Corvair, so I adjusted the tire pressures to match the GM recommendations, with about 18 psi in the front (now RADIAL) tires, and about 28 psi in the now BIAS PLY tires on the rear.

At sixteen I was still a newly-licensed driver and anxious to drive as often as possible to gain experience and to show my parents my new driving skills. My mother had to run some errands, so I asked her if I could drive her to her destinations. The Corsa convertible was now freshly washed and tuned, and off we went with me proudly driving my mother to the store. EVERYTHING APPEARED TO BE OK UNTIL WE PULLED ON TO THE FREEWAY. AS I ACCELERATED UP TO ABOUT 65 MPH THE CORVAIR BEGIN TO "FISHTAIL" BADLY, AND NO MATTER HOW HARD I TRIED I SIMPLY COULD NOT GET THE CAR TO DRIVE IN A STRAIGHT LINE!!! As my speed increased to over 50 mph the rear of the car fishtailed back and forth, and the more I accelerated the worse it got!! My frightened mother got me to slow the vehicle and take the next exit ramp, and we slowly crept home in the Corvair, which had become controllable on the streets at lower, non-highway speeds. I parked the now-uncontrollable Corvair in the driveway, and when my father returned home from work I told him abut the mysterious problem we had experienced in the family Corvair.

When I described the work I had done earlier on the Corvair — including rotating the tires front to rear — he appeared to immediately understand the problem I had inadvertently created. He told me that mixing radial and bias-ply tires on the same car was permissible, AS LONG AS THE TWO RADIAL TIRES WERE MOUNTED ON THE REAR AXLE OF THE VEHICLE! He said that putting the two radials on the front would cause any car to handle badly, and on the rear-engine Corvair the tire mix-up created a monster! I quickly swapped the front and rear tires back to their original locations, and the Corvair became drivable at highway speeds again!

BSc in Physics, California State University, Los Angeles

What happens when you mix radial and bias ply tires?

Generally, it is very bad to mix tires of different carcass construction across a car, front to back or side to side. If they are of different sizes they should still be of the same construction. For example, some cars come with larger tires on the rear, but the same carcass construction. The reason for this is that you want all the tires to behave the same or in the same proportion relative to their sizes under all conditions especially of cornering. Mixing bias ply and radials can cause the handling balance between the ends of the car to reverse depending on the situation.

Former FAA Safety Inspector at Federal Aviation Administration (1987–2015)

Related
What happens when you mix radial and bias ply tires?

Bias up front and radials in the rear is tolerable, but certainly not advised. Radials up front and bias in the rear is like riding the Wild Mouse. The rear will wag around like crazy! You DEFINITELY do not want this set-up.

https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen ... %20issues.