63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

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Kmolenda
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63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by Kmolenda »

Hi guys, you all helped me out earlier this year with my 63. Here is the problem. It starts, it warms up, it seems to run great with good vacuum, no internal engine issue that are obvious (clicking, banging etc)., and has good rpm with no flat spot or stuttering through the rpm band. I drop it to reverse or drive and she croaks, just dies out, no time to feather the gas. Basically rev it slam into gear, tires will chirp, it will move once it's moving it seems good until you come off load and hit the brakes, starts to studder and dies. It's a stock 63, 2 speed AT (power glide), electronic ign, good cap, rotor and plugs, 1 cyl a bit low on compression, but no miss fires or pops that I could notice. When it decides to go she seems to have great power, it has 4 carbs, 2 primaries and 2 secondaries. All are new and seem to function. We had a guy look at it after the carbs were installed because it wouldn't run at all, he changed jets, it got better, then got worse. I took the carbs apart found the Venturi clusters had been left loose. I fixed that problem, but could not get the carbs to set according to the manual, or all the videos you guys gave me, also had good vacuum, with no leaks, set timing and idle as close to spec as possible (given carbs didn't want to play nice). That got it drivable. Now I am totally stumped, it feels like there is no torque stahl on it. I can rev in neutral and feel the car want to move forward. When I put it in gear, it's like the motor just stops.. I did put a new vacuum modulator on the tranny, but didn't help. ANY ADVICE IS WELCOME! I live in Mn drive it only in the summer and would like to know what jets work well up here, so I can order a set, as I don't trust the guy that did it originally.

Thanks guys,
Keith
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bbodie52
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by bbodie52 »

Kmolenda wrote:...Stock setup (as far as I know engine wise) we have 4 (new) carbs on it. Crane cams electronic ignition box (to get rid of the points) automatic trans....The timing was way advanced, I set it at about 15 deg (the manual said 13)
You apparently have a 1965-1969 140 hp 164 CI engine in your 1963 Corvair. The tune-up chart below is from the 1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual. It indicates that the correct timing for the 140 hp engine is in the range of 16°-20° BTDC (with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged). NOTE 4 at the bottom of the chart also indicates that the idle speed on Powerglide-equipped engines should be "set as low as possible to obtain a smooth idle...". The idle speed is also supposed to be set with the transmission in DRIVE... not in NEUTRAL (an assistant in the driver's seat holding foot on brake pedal is a good practice).

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Kmolenda wrote:...Problem is: it starts and runs good cold, seems to accelerate fine, as it gets warm if you let off the gas it will stall, and doesn't like to start back up. If it does start, you accelerate to hwy speed it's fine again until you let off...
I'm trying to piece-together some of your previous comments. Here are a few heat-related thoughts...

(1) Your first comment sounds like a cold engine that is operating with the choke on and the choke fast-idle cam set runs OK, but when the engine heats up to normal operating temperature and the choke/fast-idle cam is off, it stalls when it DRIVE. That would sound like the idle speed screws on each carburetor are set too low — possibly set when the engine was warmed-up but in NEUTRAL. Placing it in DRIVE loads the engine with the transmission torque converter resistance, which slows the idle speed somewhat. You also mentioned 13° timing, which is lower than the specified idle range for the 140 hp engine of 16°-20°. This would also slow the idle speed somewhat. Try retiming the engine to move it into the range specified in the shop manual, and then synchronizing the idle speed screw adjustment and setting the idle speed and mixture screws with the transmission in DRIVE.

(2) Are there two gaskets and a thick insulator under each carburetor, to insulate it from cylinder head heat? Without properly installed insulators the fuel in the carburetors can overheat and boil, which can cause operating and idling problems.

Image

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(3) Some electronic ignition systems prefer a full 12V DC to power the ignition module — but Crane says otherwise for their electronic ignition unit. The electronic module should be installed in a relatively cool part of the engine compartment — away from direct engine heat or the exhaust system heat. The installation instructions start on page 8 of the attached Crane instructions. The Crane XR700 needs a ballast resistor in the circuit to lower voltage from 12V DC down to about 7V DC. The Crane XR3000 is the only Crane unit that wants to see a full 12V DC with the ballast resistor bypassed. Pay particular attention to page 10, which states that "Most XR700 installation problems result from improper ballast resistance... if the XR700 runs hot to the touch after 15 minutes of operation, you must add a ballast resistor." There was originally a resistor wire in the primary coil power circuit. This would reduce the supply voltage to approximately 7V DC at the coil positive terminal. This voltage is only temporarily increased to a full 12V DC by a second circuit from the starter solenoid, which is intended to increase the source voltage to 12V DC only when the starter is engaged to crank the engine. When the starter is disengaged, the voltage feed to the coil reverts back to the lower voltage supplied through the resistor wire in the circuit. Sometimes a previous owner might bypass the resistor wire, which could provide a full 12V DC to the coil positive terminal at all times when the key is on. Such a bypass — if it exists — would overheat the Crane XR700 module. Since you have a Crane electronic ignition system installed, if it is an XR700 you should check the wiring and voltage as described in the instructions to ensure that your Crane unit is not overheating. Check the red and yellow wires for the Crane XR700 module to ensure that they are properly connected, and that the red wire is not receiving a full 12V DC during engine operation.
Attachments
Crane Cams XR700 Optically Triggered Installation Instructions.pdf
Crane Cams XR700 Optically Triggered Installation Instructions
(3.38 MiB) Downloaded 84 times
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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Kmolenda
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by Kmolenda »

Thank you for all the info, I will give it a shot tomorrow. I went through the factory tuning and syncing procedure. (setting idle speed in drive etc) but on start up it idled SO high it would slam down into gear really hard. (And still die if I remember correctly). But if the crane box isn't wired up right, that could be the cause too. One of the gaskets was installed the wrong way too, in addition to the venture problem. Do you have a jet size recommendation? Also being that I can't keep it running in drive even with a helper, where is a good starting point with the idle speed screws? Should I really crank them down, try to set to spec, put her into neutral and see what it does?


Thanks again,

Keith
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bbodie52
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by bbodie52 »

I cannot help but feel that I am missing something with those carburetors that I can't see because of the nature of doing this over the Internet. The things you have mentioned that were discovered to be wrong with the carburetors, such as loose venturi clusters and a gasket installed incorrectly has me wondering what else might be wrong inside the carburetors that has not been discovered? I would not worry too much about the main jet size at this point. The engine is stock so there was nothing that would have a major impact on the size of the main jets. The stock jets would do for now and will not prevent the engine from running or being driveable. The main question is were the carburetors properly cleaned and reassembled, or is there something inside the carburetors that was assembled incorrectly that creates an unknown quantity in the carburetors themselves?

You should confirm that the ignition system is properly configured and installed correctly. Once you have confirmed the cylinder compression and the proper condition of the ignition system, the carburetors are essentially the only thing left. I have pointed to external peripheral items like possible vacuum leaks, the insulators and gaskets at the base of each carburetor, and outside adjustments of the idle speed and idle mixture screws. But if everything on the outside and ignition system appear to be good, and the engine still dies each time you put a load on the engine, tearing into each primary carburetor and carefully confirming proper assembly and adjustment may be all that remains.

I have attached the technical guides and shop manual sections you should need. The tune-up section 6 describes the carburetor idle synchronization procedures. The initial idle speed setting is 1½ turns after initial contact for the idle speed screws, and out 1½ turns from bottom for the idle mixture screws.
Attachments
DELCO ROCHESTER - Models H, HV Carburetor Service Manual.pdf
DELCO ROCHESTER - Models H, HV Carburetor Service Manual
(1.79 MiB) Downloaded 33 times
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6 - ENGINE TUNE-UP.pdf
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6 - ENGINE TUNE-UP
(2.92 MiB) Downloaded 79 times
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL.pdf
1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual - SECTION 6M - ENGINE FUEL
(8.87 MiB) Downloaded 20 times
Brad Bodie
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by flat6_musik »

Does it stall out when you come up to a red light and stop?
Kmolenda
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by Kmolenda »

Well the reason I'm questioning the jets is that the car was worked on last fall by a "corvair guy" and he changed the jets from what they were in the new carbs, then we never got the ones he pulled out back.. He is about two hrs away and was not impressed with the work. (He left the stuff loose!) I even called him yesterday and his answer was I dunno... Grrrrrrr.. Anyways, vacuum leaks don't exist the compression on one cyl was lower than the rest, but it's been that way for a long time.. I'll definitely go through the ign system tomorrow you guys may be on to something with that, after all we have always had some sort of load up or lack of spark since we have had it, really thought it was the carbs. Yes it does stahl when you come to a stop, or go from neutral to drive or reverse unless you really pump the gas or rev the engine up.
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by terribleted »

If the shop manual carb adjustment instructions are followed to the letter a basic curb idle speed is set in the process. Cranking down the idle speed screws should not be necessary to get idle speed within spec. In fact you should be able to set idle speed far beyond normal spec by turning down the idle speed screws. IF you have to crank down the idle speed screws to get RPM, there is something wrong within the carb such as blocked passages or things far out of adjustment. As far as the carbs go if they are clean, assembled and adjusted correctly they generally will start and run the engine with no further adjustment (this is not to say that further adjustment is not needed it is....but the motor will run at these settings). From this point, carb balancing, timing, mixture, and idle speed adjustments are made to fine tune things closer. Balance between the carbs is set and then idle speed is set adjusting both carbs equally so as not to upset the balance between them. The idle speed screws should end up using roughly 1/2 of their adjustment to arrive at a proper curb idle.

Jet size I think is probably not relevant to what you have going on at this time.

When I rebuild Corvair carbs I set the idle mixture screws at 2.5 turns out as an initial adjustment. Mixture screws are generally happiest at around 1.5-2.5 turns out. Adjust in until idle change is heard and then back out 1/4 turn is in the ballpark.

I would guess that your issue is most likely a dead carb or partly dead carbs, a vacuum leak (big one), or lastly some sort of timing issue.

Are you sure both carbs are actually working at or just off idle? With the car idling block a primary carb and see if the motor slows down or quickly shuts down. Try the same thing on the other carb. Are they the same result, or does one side shut it down right away while the other does not? If they do not both just slow the idle and make it sputter then the side that does not have much effect when blocked has problems......likely blockages, but possibly very bad adjustments.

Are you sure the secondarys are closing fully at idle. A secondary holding open (or opening along with the primaries) could cause essentially a big vacuum leak which would cause a loading stall like you are getting. Secondarys should not start to open for a good amount of throttle beyond idle (like 25% or more anyway). Be sure the vacuum balance tube hoses are sealed at the base of both front carbs. A leak here (sucking air) could also cause stalling like this. Is the PCV orifice tube in place or PCV valve (140 should be an orifice tube) wide open could cause an issue. Had a car do something just like this once and found a washer under a carb...BIG vacuum leak:)

Is the distributor vacuum advance active just off idle and then inactive as rpm's rise higher. Have the idle speed and timing been adjusted with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged? Some motors are very picky about how much idle speed you can put in before the vacuum advance becomes active at idle (which it should not be).
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Kmolenda
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by Kmolenda »

I had a few mins today after work to look at the ignition system,I found the following. Crane Fireball 700. 12v at coil key on, (12 volt supply coming from left side of engine compartment through firewall (yellow if it means anything) cane box supply tied to 12v supply at coil (+) terminal. ground out (-) side of coil, voltage dropped to 4.9. Resistance across the coil is 1.5 ohms, unknown brand of coil. This tells me that there is ballast between the key and the coil correct? Ballast is a bit before my time, lol. Now my question is what does the fireball want to see?

Keith
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by bbodie52 »

1963 Ignition Wiring Diagram
1963 Ignition Wiring Diagram
In this wiring diagram, you see two wires connected together at the junction point. The normal voltage applied to the coil positive terminal would be approximately 7-8V DC at the coil input. However, when the starter solenoid is engaged, the source voltage effectively bypasses the resistor wire circuit and boosts the input voltage to the coil to a full 12V DC to provide a "hotter" spark while the engine is being cranked.

Assuming 12V DC input from the battery, the resistor wire in the ignition circuit (R1) is approximately 1.8 Ω, and the internal resistance of a stock Corvair coil (R2) is approximately 1.5 Ω. Using the Quick Test for Ballast Resistance (from the Crane Cams manual), the voltage measured at the coil positive terminal would be approximately 7-8V DC with the standard Corvair resistor wire (1.8 Ω) in the circuit. After passing through the second resistor (1.5 Ω - coil) the output voltage measured at the coil negative terminal would be approximately 5.455V DC. (your reading was 4.9V DC — a little lower but probably caused by a slight variation in the resistor wire and/or a battery voltage possibly slightly lower than 12V DC. If you perform the test outlined by the Crane Cams instruction below, it would further confirm the presence of a resistor wire in the circuit.

Image
Ballast Resistor Test.jpg
Attachments
Crane Cams XR700 Optically Triggered Installation Instructions.pdf
Crane Cams XR700 Optically Triggered Installation Instructions
(3.38 MiB) Downloaded 28 times
Brad Bodie
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by Kmolenda »

Ok, so I am seeing what I should. Correct? Or is there too much ballast there. I've run Petronius stuff before, but this came with the crane box. Now the question is, should I bypass the resistance there or not to get the 7-8 volts that Crane wants. I guess I never thought about it this way, but the car is tough to start, (I'll measure the voltage while cranking tomorrow) so if I've got 5 volts rather than 7 or 12 for that matter I could have pretty weak spark. Once the car does start, the voltage will rise due to charging and run good (no load). When it gets loaded by the trans, the voltage drops below say 5v causing the crane box to shut down? Or malfunction a bit. Am I on the right train of thought here? It seems odd to me that crane would design something for a 12 volt application, then want it to operate off the original ballast circuitry. Why wounds they just do a 12v input and out the 7 or 8 volts from the box to the coil? Hmmm. I have always had problems with the ign system (hard starts, load ups etc). Is there a better system for these cars?
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by terribleted »

The crane XR700 does not require 12V constant. It is made to run off the normal 6-8V supplied by the car via the normal resistance wire. I honestly think your problem is carb or vacuum related more likely than ignition.
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by bbodie52 »

The Crane power lead is supposed to be connected to the positive — not he negative — coil terminal. At that point the ballast resistor wire should have reduced the voltage to the required 7-8 volts.
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by Kmolenda »

The crane box is hooked up correctly, I am going over tommorow after work and will check the voltage, at the coil when cranking, when it's idling and what it goes to when put into drive. I'll re spray for vacuum leaks and take a reading at both carbs. Is there any other placed a vacuumed leak could occur either than the obvious? Base gaskets, balance tube, secondaries open, lines, modulator or distributor? I'll check to see when the secondary's are opening,the other day it seemed around 25-30% throttle. If all seems well, I'll go to the primaries next , pull them, clean them, set them according to the factory specs. I guess that's my plan... One more question, what type of spray pattern should I see from the cluster. Looking at it the other day, it seemed drippy rather than a nice mist, or squirt.

Thanks again guys good infor from all!
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by terribleted »

How does the compression test. Is there a dead cylinder or 2?
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

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Kmolenda
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by Kmolenda »

I did it early summer and one cyl was slightly lower than the others. But when I get it going, it runs real smooth and has decent power.. It getting it to that point. Engine doesn't shake , idles real smooth. Like I said before, it acts as if there is no stahl with the torque convertor. It's really throwing me, and makeing me second guess myself... Frustrating little bugger...
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Re: 63 get put in gear and dies... I'm stumped!

Post by bbodie52 »

Kmolenda wrote:...One more question, what type of spray pattern should I see from the cluster. Looking at it the other day, it seemed drippy rather than a nice mist, or squirt...
:whoa: :dontknow:
Not normal. I've never seen that happen, but if I did I would be looking at tearing the carbs down to check for clean, unblocked passages and proper assembly. Is this happening with both carburetors... or just one?
Brad Bodie
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