66 Monza vert - opinions?

[Highland 124]

I'm looking for my first vair (LM 65-66 vert). This one's in the area on CL:

http://elmira.craigslist.org/cto/4647867150.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Haven't yet seen it, so of course there are a lot of questions yet to be answered... not the least is whether there's any rust, being a NY car. Off the bat I'm wary of the possibility of rust, especially on a vert. Some surface rust is visible in the trunk pic beneath the master cylinder, which seems fairly common. There are some pretty good things listed, and I really like the color combo, which doesn't seem to appear very often.


I'd appreciate any and all opinions forum members may have to offer based on the ad. I do plan on checking it out to see and find out more, but would like to know what folks much more knowledgeable than I think at this point. If the body is solid as claimed, might this be a reasonable asking price?

Thanks!

Eric

[DT-VAIR]

If you can go see it - go and open the doors, look under the car, etc for all the typical rust. It looks great in the pics - but my old rust bucket looked great in the pics too. As you'll read on the forum - you need to pay close attention to the rockers with verts. That's the big one as they are pretty damn important for the structural integrity and hard to replace.

I'd check (and sorry if these are obvious):

1.) Door Hinges and under side of the doors
2.) Windshield cowl and very front of dash where it meets the window on the inside. Good chance there will be bubbled paint/cracking on the lower corner of the windshield from previous repairs. Not a deal breaker probably - but good to consider.
3.) While you're checking the rockers in the back of the rockers, under the car and right before the rear wheel well there will be a hole (possibly with a rubber flap over it) - check to see if that's open, clogged, etc. If it was in the rain much that's where the water would flow out through the flush through design GM had then. If it's clogged up with debri - there could be rust on the inside of the rockers.
4.) Check in the trunk to the right of the master cylinder as far as you can go (under the top of the fender) - check the top of the wheel well - common place I've found for rust through.
5.) Check the battery tray
6.) Check the lower rear fender wells inside the engine bay - pull back all the insulation if it has it.
7.) Check all the floors.

If you go see it - see if the owner will let take the Fisher door sills off and look under there and under the carpet a bit to see any more rocker rust. Bring your magnet (with some sort of fabric to protect the paint). I use one of the magnets for the kid lock outs on my cabinets - works well with a nice place to grab. There's a good Corvair checklist you can download http://www.corvairsnorthwest.org/Conten ... checks.pdf.

As for price - from what I've seen lately - that's not too bad if it's decent shape - prices have been going up and up lately on Corvairs. Good for us that have them I guess - but not for those looking. From the pics it looks to have been cared for pretty well and looks like a good candidate - but again - they all look great in pictures.

Go out and take it for a spin and give it a good look over. I do like the color combo like you said - though I'd want to put new wheels on it right away and get rid of the 13's! That the only original thing I don't like on these.

These are just my ... Good luck in your search!

Tony

[Highland 124]

Thanks Tony. I knew some of the stuff you mentioned, but others were new to me. Good information; appreciate you taking the time to fill me in. I'm going to check it out today... Will post the results.

Eric

[flat6_musik]

I would say, yes, do some up-close detective work for any and all signs of rust around the underbody and low on the fenders/doors/quarter panels (bubbles forming under the paint). If this car has seen a fair share of salted roads over the years, I'm thinking that many of the suspension components will have some fairly heavy pitting. Bring yourself a large piece of cardboard and a nice high-powered flashlight and examine, examine, examine! Also, with the windows all rolled down, peer down inside the inner area of the doors and quarter panels (on the rear quarter windows).

Not to try and scare you, but.......check out what our buddy from across the pond bought........what a nightmare. Great pics to show you what it could be though!

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2512

[bbodie52]

What follows is an attempt at introducing new prospective Corvair Owners to Corvairs and some of the issues involved. Food for thought, before you take the plunge. This is a copy of something I wrote earlier, but I think it may be helpful in your quest for the "right" Corvair...

I will try to provide a quick summary of the 1960-1969 Corvair lineup, and will also try to provide some answers regarding the use of a Corvair as a "daily driver".

EARLY MODEL: 1960 - 1964 Corvairs were the first generation. Their body style emulated other Chevrolet body styles from the early 1960s. The rear suspension was a swing-axle design that was similar to the Volkswagen "Beetle". The 1960 model year was the only year with a 140 cubic inch engine, and there were some characteristics that were unique to that model year only. A number of refinements were implemented in the following year, including some restyling of the front end and an increase in displacement to 145 cubic inches (CI). A manual choke was used in 1961, and this was changed to an automatic choke design in 1962 that remained with the car through 1969. A turbocharged 150 hp Spyder was introduced in 1962, and the Spyder name remained with the turbocharged engine through 1964. In 1964 the engine displacement in all Corvair engines increased from 145 CI to 164 CI. There were also some suspension refinements, including a front anti-sway bar and a rear transverse leaf spring to improve handling in all 1964 Corvairs. Here are a few pictures of Early Model (EM) 1960-1964 Corvairs...













LATE MODEL:The 1965 Corvair introduced a completely new body style, that was also seen later in similar styles in the Camaro and Pontiac Firebird. The drum brake size was increased, and the swing-axle rear suspension design used in EM Corvairs was abandoned. The new rear suspension was a design lifted from the Corvette Stingray.

1965 and 1966 Corvairs were nearly identical. In 1967-69 the top of the line Corsa was dropped, leaving the Monza and economy 500 until production was discontinued in the spring of 1969. During the 1967-69 production period, there were minor safety changes, such as a dual master brake cylinder in place of the single unit used in 1960-1966. Interior seats and trim changed somewhat, paralleling the items used in Camaros and some other GM products during that period.

All 1965-66 Corsas came with a standard 4-carburetor 140 hp engine, and an optional 180 hp turbocharged engine. The 140 hp engine remained optional in the rest of the lineup. Other engine options in the Monza and 500 were 110 hp and 95 hp dual carburetor engines. All engines could be had with a manual 4-speed or 3-speed transmission, or with a 2-speed Powerglide automatic (with the exception of the 1965-66 turbocharged 180 hp engine, which was available with the Corsa only, and only with a 4-speed manual transmission).

Air conditioning was a rare option, but can be found in the 1965-1969 lineup, and some of the EM Corvairs as well. The following link will provide you with some air conditioned Corvair background and history...
http://www.corvair.org/chapters/airvairs/

The brakes, front and rear suspension, transaxle and body were essentially identical in the Corsa, Monza, and 500. The primary differences in the cars were the instrument panel (the Corsa had more gauges), trim details, and the engine option.

The late model Corvairs were available in a 2-door Coupe, 2-door Convertible, and 4-door Sedan. The weight of the cars was very similar in all configurations.

Here is something I wrote over a year ago — Brad's Admonition, or some words of advice — based on over 50 years of exposure to Corvair ownership — that I wrote to try to give new Corvair buyers some idea of the issues involved. I'm sure you have some idea already, but I also think this is worth considering...

Since you are new to Corvairs, I want to give you some information that I have written to other new prospective first-time Corvair owners. I have been involved with Corvairs since I was nine years old, when my parents bought our first Corvair – a brand new 1961 Monza 2-door coupe, white on red with a 4-speed transmission. I now own Corvair number ten, which I purchased in June 2012. (If you want to read a brief personal biography that outlines my family background and our experiences with Corvairs, go to CORVAIR FORUM > Introductions > New from Lake Chatuge North Carolina. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4032 ) I want to encourage your enthusiasm in developing your plans to buy your first Corvair, but at the same time I want to help you to think through just what you are getting into. So please read and consider these comments below...

I have listened to many potential Corvair first-time owners. Many have no prior experience with owning any classic car, and many have never driven a Corvair at all, or have not driven one in decades. Some are motivated by childhood memories of a family Corvair. They typically describe the desire to locate a perfect, restored, ultra-clean example, and look to the Corvair Forum Corvair enthusiasts and aficionados to tell them what to do.

The first thing I think that needs to be done is to try to set-aside the usual emotion-based enthusiasm that any car buyer might feel when visiting a dealer and gazing with emotional eagerness at the vast array of new cars displayed in the showroom, on the car lot, and in factory brochures and advertisements. There is an extreme difference between owning a 40+ year-old Chevrolet that was likely engineered, designed and built with pre-planned obsolescence in mind — a car that GM only envisioned having a life-span of ten years or so. Many of the potential Corvair buyers are captivated with the exciting idea of owning something different — something not normally seen on the road — something that your neighbor will not buy! Certainly that is the case with a Corvair, but owning a Corvair and enjoying that ownership demands a certain dose of reality before you "buy-in". Many are unprepared for the maintenance and upkeep demands of a Corvair. "Where can I find a good Corvair mechanic?" is a common question — often displaying an inability or unwillingness to do some mechanical work and maintain that car yourself. Yet qualified Corvair mechanics can be distant, expensive, inconvenient, and all-too rare. At a time when finding even a spark plug, fan belt, or oil filter for a Corvair often means an Internet or mail-order purchase, finding local support may be unlikely or impossible. Even searching automobile junk yards will often not help, because these cars are so rare and infrequently found that they have all but disappeared from the scrap yards too. Even locating and buying a used part is a mail-order proposition. And even if you spend $15,000-$20,000 for a fully-restored Corvair in mint condition, it still comes "as-is", with no warranty and little in the way of a local support system — far different than what most car buyers are used to expecting! These are the realities of owning an older classic car.

Corvairs are popular and affordable classic cars, and enjoy a good infrastructure of maintenance supporters, owner's clubs, and parts suppliers — and that REALLY helps! But I suspect that most happy Corvair owners are something of "shade-tree mechanics" and hobbyists who are prepared to deal with the risks and problems related to Corvair ownership. It requires a long-term commitment and a dose of reality to happily own a classic Corvair. The "first date" infatuation with the attractiveness and uniqueness of a Corvair will not sustain you in a long-term relationship with a Corvair. It is far-better to have a realistic idea of just what you are getting into before you "take the plunge" and buy your dream car.

A cautious, knowledgeable and educated search for your dream Corvair is a great start, and a careful and realistic analysis of your own mechanical talents, skills and abilities is also useful. If you plan to have a mechanic do most of the work for you, the availability of a Corvair-skilled mechanic and the associated costs involved must be taken into account in your financial planning to own a Corvair.

I try to not be too negative, but I have worked with others who came to realize that Corvair ownership was more than they could handle. I just feel that new prospective Corvair owners come here to this forum to learn from others who have more experience, and we are not doing them any favors by "candy coating" the issues involved. If they pass the "sanity check" and still want to pursue buying a Corvair, then GREAT! This Forum and perhaps some local Corvair club members can potentially help them pursue that dream. But it should be a realistic dream, and not a frustrating "nightmare" experience. Better to make a clear-headed, informed decision early in the game!

I hope that these comments are useful to you. I know I get "long-winded", but I also know you are trying to make an important decision, and I hope all of these comments will help you.

Corvairs can suffer from rust and body rot problems, especially in areas that use a lot of road salt in the wintertime. While you may be able to learn and successfully attack most mechanical issues as a DIY effort, body decay can be much-more difficult, time-consuming, intimidating, and expensive to correct. So look for hidden rust or rot problems that may have been covered up with plastic filler, and be cautious in your Corvair selection.

So yes, a Corvair can serve well as a daily driver. But I would recommend a backup car or other alternatives, since ANY breakdown can put the car out of service for days until replacement parts can be obtained (if needed). If you have the skills and ability to work on the car yourself, repairs can often be completed fairly quickly. But if you have to rely on professional mechanics, downtime can be long and possibly expensive — if you can find a good mechanic to do the work for you.

Common and Useful Corvair Websites

Corvair Forum viewtopic.php?f=225&t=6007

Local Corvair contacts can be very helpful — especially to a new Corvair owner. The Corvair Forum is really great too, but face-to-face contact with like-minded Corvair owners can help a lot with the learning and maintenance process. The closest CORSA (Corvair Society of America) club chapter to you appears to be about 90 miles from you if the ACORNS chapter does not work out.


CORSA Chapter Locator - Central New York Corvair Club

Chapter ID: 130
Organization Name: Central New York Corvair Club
Street Address (Primary): P.O. Box 616, Jamesville, NY
President: Phil Domser, Phone: 315-732-1262, e-mail: pdomser1@yahoo.com
Vice President: Peter O'Kussick, Phone: 315-252-8105, e-mail: pokus4@msn.com
Secretary: Pam O'Kussick, Phone: 315-252-8105, e-mail: pokus4@msn.com
Treasurer: Kevin Fear, Phone: 315-492-9553, e-mail: monza64@aol.com
Membership: Gloria Fear, Phone: 315-492-9553, e-mail: Globug39@aol.com
Editors / Events: Tim Colson, e-mail: N2VZD@aol.com & Rita Colson, e-mail: RITAC44@aol.com,
Phone: 315-689-3366
Newsletter Name: The Corvair Fan
Website: http://www.cnycorvair.com/
Email (Primary): ddunlap3@twcny.rr.com

The Central New York Corvair Club is a group of Corvair enthusiasts who enjoy our cars with many knowledgeable people in our group who are willing to share their knowledge to help with any Corvair problem or question. We have a business meeting once a month (guests are always welcome), try to have an outing most months, show our cars at many of the local shows, host an annual show (the Recall) and have tech sessions several times a year. Stop in and see us at the shows or the business meeting and come and join us. We are always looking for new members and new ideas. Our dues are $20 a year.

For more information, please call (or e-mail) Pam O'Kussick at 315-252-8105 or Gloria Fear at 315-492-9553

[MBlaster1]

Ask the seller to send some picture from under the car if it is covered up with under coat better take a look in person and look under the carpet.

[Highland 124]

Here's what I found when I saw the car. The good: Nice driver quality paint; was repainted at some point in the original Tropic Turquoise. Interior in good shape; appears original, all upholstery very good with no rips or discoloration. Carpet faded but intact. Power top operated smoothly, and the top itself was in good condition. Floors seem solid, checked under car - no issue. Engine started right up and ran smoothly; according to seller was rebuilt 2 years/about 3000 mi. ago. Took it for a drive - ran great, powerglide shifted smoothly through all gears. Lights, radio and other electrical all worked, except turn signals wouldn't flash unless lever was held down.

Now, the not so good: A few oil drips on garage floor, apparently coming from rearmost area of engine. Oil filter has some runs from top and there's some pooling on sheet metal beneath filter. Maybe filter not tight enough? Examination for rust found about a 1" hole inside both rear wheel wells just behind the rockers. I looked for the rocker drain holes Tony described, but didn't find them. Either I missed them somehow, or maybe they were filled in at some point. There was paint bubbling in several places: lower part of both front fenders just ahead of the doors, both rocker panels, bottom of driver's door and both lower rear quarters between the door and wheel well. A couple of tiny bubbles beneath the passenger side windshield pillar area also. No rust apparent on quarters behind wheel wells, but some small areas failed the fridge magnet test, indicating filler. The magnet found more small spots of filler in a few other areas of the body, all near bubbled paint.

I liked the car, but the rust killed it for me. Wish it had turned out otherwise; it's the second vair I've looked at, both taken out of consideration due to rust. I'm not likely to find a rust-free car in New York, so I've also been watching ebay and CL out of state. I'll find the right car sooner or later.

Eric

[terribleted]

Yup typical rust holes. Likely bad rocker on the one side anyway. You just really can not tell how bad these are until they are stripped to the bare metal, and even then some significant rust can be hiding.

[flat6_musik]

Looks like that car's on the "slippery slope" of becoming a total rustbucket. The owner must know this and wants to unload it ASAP, before it becomes totally apparent. I wouldn't touch it, even for cheap. Maybe you could consider shipping in a rust free car that just needs some TLC and cosmetic items that YOU could install.