64 Monza Transmission issue

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Ron64Convertible
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Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

I am new to the forum and to Corvairs. I have been restoring a 64 Convertible Monza (with just over 60-K miles) since last June. The car was sitting for over 20 years and was supposedly running well before the owner had medical issues and parked it. He later passed away and his wife sold the car. I removed the engine/trans/diff. Upon inspection through the inspection covers the trans and differential gears looked to be in good condition, clean, no noticeable wear and shifts smoothly. I rebuilt the engine, installed a new clutch/pressure plate/throw out bearing. However when I tried to drive the car out of the garage it wouldn't move. It appears to shift smoothly into all forward gears, but when I release the clutch it won't engage. I assumed that I installed the clutch wrong and it was disengaged, but if I try to shift to reverse it grinds preventing me from shifting even with the clutch depressed. This confused me since it contradicts the action in the forward gears. Also, with the engine off and in any gear the wheels turn freely with no resistance from the engine. Any suggestions what may be the issue. I assume I will have to remove the engine again, but first would like to have some idea what to look for.
Thanks,
Ron
Wagon Master
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Wagon Master »

Just a stab in the dark.....clutch disc installed backwards. Engine off, shift into reverse, depress clutch, try to start. Make sure it is clear behind you!
66vairguy
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by 66vairguy »

Basically ---- You are looking at pulling the drivetrain. I would suggest dropping the engine transaxle as a unit then pulling them apart. I've seen things go wrong when trying to install the engine onto a transaxle in the car.

It sounds like the engine to differential connection has a problem. The transmission output shaft fits inside the ring and pinion shaft in the differential. The ring and pinion shaft has inner splines that wear and eventually fail. Not saying that is your problem.

At this point I'd study the cut away dwgs in the manual and get ahold of someone with knowledge to help, may be a local club.

DO NOTE the 1964 flywheel, pressure plate, clutch were revised. Sometimes folks put the wrong parts in. Someone with more EM knowledge than I can post the details.
66vairguy
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by 66vairguy »

Wagon Master wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:42 pm Just a stab in the dark.....clutch disc installed backwards. Engine off, shift into reverse, depress clutch, try to start. Make sure it is clear behind you!
Oh yeah - that happens more than one would think.

Ron - post your general location and you might get lucky and find some help.
Ron64Convertible
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Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

I did make sure the large weld side of the clutch was facing the pressure plate and pretty sure everything was installed correctly, but will have to make sure once it has been removed. The new clutch and pressure plate did appear to be just like the ones that came off however after further study I believe the differential may be from a 63 (casting #'s C8-63, 3826198)? It did not appear that the trans & diff have ever been out before due to the amount of grime, dirt accumulated. Could this be an early 64 with a 63 differential? I didn't mention before that this is a 4 speed.
Thanks for the information. I guess I'll just have to remove it again and have someone look it over.
Ron64Convertible
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

I am in Northern VA
Ron
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bbodie52
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by bbodie52 »

:welcome2: Welcome to the Corvair Forum!

From your description it is hard to figure out just what is working and what isn't. There might be two separate problems, with the clutch and with the transmission. The overlap of the two problems might mask or confuse the symptoms.

With the engine off, when you shift into any forward gear the car should be locked in place and you wont be able to push it. A link between the wheels and the crankshaft would hold the car and would prevent it from moving. The same would be true in Reverse. This would confirm continuity between the engine and the rear wheels. Is the car secured in-place in all forward gears and in reverse? If the car is prevented from rolling while in gear, can it be pushed while in gear when someone holds down the clutch pedal?

If the car can be moved while in each forward gear, but not in reverse, there may be a fault with the shift linkage or internally with the forward gears inside the transmission. If the transmission secures the car only in Reverse, I would look at the shift linkage or for an internal transmission fault. There is a troubleshooting chart at the end of the transmission section in the shop manual that might be helpful.

If the car is locked in-place in Reverse, and depressing the clutch does not allow the vehicle to roll, you may have a separate problem with the clutch only that is preventing the clutch from disengaging. If Reverse turns out to be the only working gear in the transmission, a problem with the clutch failing to disengage might only become apparent when you try to shift into the one working gear in the transmission wit the engine running and you hear the gears grinding.

Please note that you should never use GL-5 gear lube in a manual transmission and associated differential. Only use gear lube rated GL-4. GL-5 will damage the "yellow metal" synchro gears inside the transmission, while GL-4 is safe for the "yellow metal" components. The fluid in the differential can transfer to the transmission case, so the same GL-4 gear lube must be used in the differential.

ImageImage

:dontknow: I would like to encourage you to expand on your earlier posts and tell us more about yourself, as well as about your Corvair. If you can provide your personal assessment of your mechanical skills and abilities, that would help a lot. Members of the Corvair Forum love to be helpful in assisting other Corvair owners with technical support and advice, but it helps a lot if we have some understanding of your technical background and mechanical abilities, your Corvair-related knowledge, etc. Helping us to know more about you will help us to write comments to you that are tailored to your needs and experience. Knowing your specific location is also useful, because knowing where you live can sometimes suggest possibilities.

The link below will provide you with a list of useful websites that are Corvair-related. Some of the links will lead you to an extensive technical library that will allow you to download shop manuals and other technical references in Adobe Reader format at no cost. There is also a link that will help you to locate nearby CORSA (Corvair Society of America) club chapters. While the Corvair Forum can be very helpful as you work on your Corvair, having local friends and contacts in your region who are knowledgeable about the Corvair can also be very helpful. These family-friendly CORSA chapters often offer picnics, group scenic drives, technical training and assistance, car shows, and competition events that can greatly enhance your enjoyment of Corvair ownership. You will also find a list of essential Corvair parts suppliers. Clark's Corvair Parts is the biggest and oldest Corvair supplier in the world. You will find a link that can provide you with a series of videos that amount to a tour of the Clark's Corvair Parts facilities. I think you will be amazed at the quality of the reproduction components they offer — particularly the interior carpeting and re-upholstery items. Parts suppliers such as this truly make our Corvair hobby possible.

Common and Useful Corvair Websites

:link: viewtopic.php?f=225&t=6007

:welcome:

If you don't currently have a 1961 shop manual and a 1964 supplement, I have attached some appropriate sections of those references to guide you.

:chevy:
Attachments
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6b - Clutch.pdf
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6b - Clutch
(459.77 KiB) Downloaded 30 times
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6c - Rear Axle.pdf
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6c - Rear Axle
(1.17 MiB) Downloaded 17 times
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6d - Manual 3-Speed Transmission.pdf
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6d - Manual 3-Speed Transmission
(688.29 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6d - Manual 4-Speed Transmission.pdf
1961 Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6d - Manual 4-Speed Transmission
(627.42 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6b - Clutch.pdf
1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6b - Clutch
(256.53 KiB) Downloaded 22 times
1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6c - Rear Axle.pdf
1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6c - Rear Axle
(661.15 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6d - Manual 3 and 4-Speed Transmission.pdf
1964 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 6d - Manual 3 and 4-Speed Transmission
(194.42 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
Image 1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible
Ron64Convertible
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

Wow, that is a lot of information that I need to check. I live in Northern Virginia and this is my first Corvair although I have restored other cars. I am not a certified mechanic by any means, but I did remove the front end, replace most steering components, replaced the gas tank, all brakes, wiring harness, cables, gas lines, body work (not professionally) and rebuilt the engine over the last 8 months. I am mostly learning as I go. I retired two years ago and just enjoy working on old cars, reclaiming good drivers not show cars. I do not really have any experience with transmissions or differentials other than installing a few clutches. I have reached out to the Northern Virginia chapter of Corsa but have not heard back from anyone yet. I really appreciate all the feedback I am getting from Corvair Forum. Thanks again,
Ron
Ron64Convertible
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

Sorry forgot to add all the symptoms. The car will roll freely in all gears including reverse. I cannot put the car in reverse with the engine running even with the clutch depressed, just grinds the gears. This is what stumps me since it acts as if the clutch is disengaged but it still grinds in reverse so the clutch must be engaged, but still rolls freely?
Ron
66vairguy
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by 66vairguy »

Ron64Convertible wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:33 pm I did make sure the large weld side of the clutch was facing the pressure plate and pretty sure everything was installed correctly, but will have to make sure once it has been removed. The new clutch and pressure plate did appear to be just like the ones that came off however after further study I believe the differential may be from a 63 (casting #'s C8-63, 3826198)? It did not appear that the trans & diff have ever been out before due to the amount of grime, dirt accumulated. Could this be an early 64 with a 63 differential? I didn't mention before that this is a 4 speed.
Thanks for the information. I guess I'll just have to remove it again and have someone look it over.
I don't have a good reference for the casting numbers, but the 64 had a revised rear suspension (one year only) that used a leaf spring that passed through a bracket the bolted to the bottom of the differential to each brake backing plate area. So the 64 (64 model year - started in 63) differential case is unique because of the revised area in the casting to bolt the bracket to. It is desirable since the 64 is considered to be better handling and rides better. Also the rear coil springs were revised to work with the leaf spring.

Of course after all these decades you find all kinds of swaps and incorrect components in Corvairs. Always nice to find experienced folks that can help identify components.
Ron64Convertible
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Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

My car does have the transverse leaf spring, but the differential doesn't have the bolt hole to attach it. The spring just pushes against the bottom of the differential. Looks like the diff may have been traded out sometime in the past 50 odd years.
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terribleted
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by terribleted »

If your car has the factory 64 transverse leaf spring but does not have the correct 64 style differential with the center mounting provisions for that spring, and the spring is not mounted in the center, it is likely unsafe to operate it that way. (There were a couple aftermarket rear leaf setups that worked with the pre-64 differentials. These units still attached the leaf spring in the middle with brackets off existing transaxle bolts.) In any case the leaf spring needs to be secure in the center. The stock 64 differential has a flattened area under the center bottom that the spring rests in. This area also include tapped holes (fore and aft of the leaf spring) for the 3/8" bolts that attach a metal bracket and rubber cushions over the spring keeping it in place under the differential both fore and aft and side to side. The 63 and earlier differentials are not shaped to hold the spring in place at all and are not as flat so I would expect they would increase the spring tension as well possibly resulting in increased rear ride height. I would be concerned about the leaf spring jumping out of place forward or backward with nothing to keep it where it needs to be during suspension operation.

If it was mine I would find a 64 differential and put it right if possible, or, you could leave the earlier differential, install 63 rear springs and leave the transverse leaf off.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
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Located in Snellville, Georgia
Ron64Convertible
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

Thanks, I'll have to look into this issue with the differential & spring some more. I may need to find a rebuilt 64 diff once I can figure out the other issues.
Wagon Master
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:36 pm

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Wagon Master »

Ron64Convertible wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 pm Sorry forgot to add all the symptoms. The car will roll freely in all gears including reverse. I cannot put the car in reverse with the engine running even with the clutch depressed, just grinds the gears. This is what stumps me since it acts as if the clutch is disengaged but it still grinds in reverse so the clutch must be engaged, but still rolls freely?
Ron
Unless I missed it, What were the results of my suggestion of putting the car into reverse BEFORE trying to start the engine? Regardless of what the pedal feels like, I'm betting the clutch is not disengaging. As a temporary fix take about 1/2"- 1" of slack out of the clutch cable and try again. As a side note the 61-63 diffs had a taller clutch fork pivot ball compared to what the 64-69 clutch design needed. In my opinion you still need to source a 64 diff.
Ron64Convertible
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
Location: Woodbridge, VA

Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

I took most of the slack out of the clutch rod and put it in reverse then cranked the engine and the wheels do not move.
Wagon Master
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Wagon Master »

With it adjusted there, at what point in the pedal travel did the car start to back up?
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