64 Monza Transmission issue

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Ron64Convertible
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

It will not back up at all. The clutch does not engage in any gear. With the engine off and in any gear the wheels turn freely as if the clutch is depressed fully. With the engine running I can shift into any forward gear with the same results however I cannot shift into reverse while the engine is running, just grinds. It doesn't make since to me that it grinds in reverse when the engine is running, but with the engine off and in reverse the car rolls freely? I think this may boil down to the fact that I may have a 63 diff with a clutch for a 64, although the new parts appeared to have match the ones that came out exactly as far as I could tell.
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bbodie52
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by bbodie52 »

:chevy: Note that the factory rear transverse leaf spring adds to the coil spring rate, so the rear coil springs in the 1964 are different and were designed to work in conjunction with the transverse leaf spring. If the 1964 differential is not available to secure the transverse spring and you decide to remove the transverse spring assembly from the car, new coil springs should be obtained for a 1963 convertible to provide your car with a proper rear spring rate.
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Below is a advertisement for an aftermarket EMPI transverse leaf spring (no longer manufactured) for 1963 and earlier Corvairs. Chevrolet added their own transverse leaf spring in the 1964 model year (standard on all models), along with the front anti-sway bar that had previously been standard in 1962-1963 on Spyders and optional on other Corvairs.
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You might try the Corvair Ranch to see if they have anything that could help you. They have a large inventory of Corvair parts cars, trucks, and vans and should be knowledgeable about the components you need. Not sure where you are located in Northern Virginia, but the Corvair Ranch is only about 90 miles from the town of Winchester, VA, so some phone calls and a drive to Gettysburg on a parts hunt for your car might provide you with many needed items from this well-supplied and experienced Corvair specialist...

:link: http://www.corvairranch.com/
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1079 Bon-Ox Road, ​Gettysburg, ​PA. 17325 USA
​Phone: 717-624-2805
fax us by the same number... ask us to hook up the machine
​Email: findit@theranch.today
Our hours are Monday thru Friday 9 to 5, Saturday 9 to 12
or contact us for an appointment.

I took most of the slack out of the clutch rod and put it in reverse then cranked the engine and the wheels do not move.
There could be a problem in the differential (spider gears broken, for example) that may be the missing link between the transmission and the rear wheels. The running engine would still be linked to the transmission gearset via the long input shaft that ties the clutch disc to the transmission. But the output from the transmission may not be reaching the rear axles if the differential has failed. With the rear of the car off of the ground, does the rear wheel on the opposite side of the car rotate in the opposite direction if you manually turn the rear wheel on one side of the car?
Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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Ron64Convertible
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

When I bought the clutch kit from Corvair Ranch for a 1964 it included the clutch/pressure plate and bearing. Could this be as simple as replacing the pivot ball? I understand the length is slightly different from 60-63 to 64-69. I believe I have the correct 64 flywheel. I see on Clark's Corvair sight that the clutch, pressure plate and bearing can be used on either year but the correct pivot may need to be changed. Do I understand this correctly and wold this cause the issues I am experiencing? Just trying to understand how this works :banghead:
Ron64Convertible
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

It does look like I have a 63 diff since there are not bolt holes for the spring bracket to bolt to. I will have to look for a good 64 diff, I guess.
The rear wheels do turn opposite when up on stands, which it is now. I did remove the cover plate on the diff when I had it out and inspected the gears as much as I could without disassembling it and everything looked to be clean and no damage to the gears that I could determine. I cleaned out the case as far as I could reach and found no metal shavings when I reached a magnet into the case. I really appreciate all the advice I have been receiving.
Wagon Master
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Wagon Master »

Most definitely got a miss match in parts some where. Hard to imagine how, but it sounds like the pressure plate is hung up and not clamping the disc, but yet the pilot bushing is hanging up the input shaft no allowing selection of reverse with the engine running. The original installer also had to put a 60-63 input shaft seal into a 64 throw out bearing snout so he could use the smaller input shaft. Unless it's a 64-65 trans. on a 61-63 diff. In his defense though, his setup worked until the new owner replace clutch parts. Regardless it's got to come back apart to measure and inspect what went wrong.
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Wagon Master »

As a side note for future reference, spinning the wheels in opposite directions while up on jack stands means nothing about clutch health or if the trans is in gear or not. It only means you have an "Open" non-posi differential and you spider gears are not broken.
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terribleted
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by terribleted »

Ron64Convertible wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:33 am When I bought the clutch kit from Corvair Ranch for a 1964 it included the clutch/pressure plate and bearing. Could this be as simple as replacing the pivot ball? I understand the length is slightly different from 60-63 to 64-69. I believe I have the correct 64 flywheel. I see on Clark's Corvair sight that the clutch, pressure plate and bearing can be used on either year but the correct pivot may need to be changed. Do I understand this correctly and wold this cause the issues I am experiencing? Just trying to understand how this works :banghead:
Ok so you are supposed to have a 64 pressure plate (late style) a 64 clutch disc (actually fits all years) and a 64 (late style) throwout bearing. You may have the wrong clutch pivot ball. This sounds likely to me simply because someone apparently installed the wrong differential with no consideration of the leafspring. I doubt they had any clue about different pivot ball heights and the 63 diff would likely have the early style. The other possibility is that the flywheel is the incorrect style (you could have both problems). The early style flywheel was flat all the way across the entire face from edge to edge. On the later style flywheel (goes with the parts you bought) The outer few inches of the face is higher than the area where the clutch disc rides (often called stepped flywheel). Looks like you are pulling a powertrain in any case. You will see what you need when you look the second time with a more informed eye:)
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
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bbodie52
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by bbodie52 »

The chart below may help to reveal any mismatch that might have occurred...

:link: Image
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Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by 66vairguy »

Wow a lot of information here.
At least we know someone previously swapped parts on this car so it's time to take it apart and figure out whats wrong. When ever someone says "Oh it ran fine when we parked it" - I think something broke or some repair went wrong and the car was "parked"!

The correct differential case can be found, and would enhance the value of the car - IMHO. You should determine if the transmission is a 64 or earlier. I believe the 64 trans. clutch gear were the input shaft fits is 14 splines and earlier transmissions were 12 spline. Others can confirm.

Since the transmission is not turning the wheels speculation suggests the differential ring and pinion shaft inner splines are stripped or maybe the sun or spyder gears in differential are broken. This is ONLY speculation. Only a dismantle and inspection will determine what is wrong.

Hopefully you'll find someone with Corvair experience to help find the problem. Maybe Jeff at the Corvair Ranch in PA. http://www.corvairranch.com/
Ron64Convertible
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

Thanks for all the input. I believe the transmission is from a 64 and the differential is from a 63. The clutch package was for a 64, but looked just like the parts I removed. The flywheel is the step down type for the 64. I did not replace the ball pivot, which may be from a 63? Even if the car is on jack stands shouldn't there be resistance turning the rear wheels if it is in gear? I guess I will go ahead and pull the engine back out and inspect the parts and let you know what I find. Thanks again.
Wagon Master
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Wagon Master »

Ron64Convertible wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:42 am Even if the car is on jack stands shouldn't there be resistance turning the rear wheels if it is in gear? Thanks again.
Nope! Very little resistance will be felt. All that's turning is the 4 spider gears inside the carrier.
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bbodie52
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by bbodie52 »

The differential allows you to turn one yoke or the other independently, even if the transmission locks the input drive gear (as long as one wheel i off of the ground). The differential spider gears allow one wheel to rotate independently. If one wheel loses traction (on mud, ice, etc.) it will allow one wheel to spin, while the other wheel receives no power and will not be driven at all. A Limited Slip (Positraction) differential helps compensate for this fault. (With the wheels both off of the ground, manually turning one wheel in one direction will cause the opposite wheel to turn in the opposite direction. If you have a limited slip differential, both wheels will turn in the same direction). The videos below will explain the principles behind the function of a differential...



Brad Bodie
Lake Chatuge, North Carolina
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Ron64Convertible
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

The videos are excellent, especially the 2nd one. I knew basically how the differential worked, but now I understand it much better. I disconnected my engine and Trans this morning and will drop it out as soon as I can get my brother's help. Then I hope I can track down the problems.
Thanks so much for the videos, the visuals really help.
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bbodie52
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by bbodie52 »

I know what you mean about being able to visualize something. It is so much easier to perform fault isolation and troubleshooting when you can visualize in your mind how something works — or is supposed to work — and then interpret what is actually happening and how it is deviating from "normal".

:idea: The books shown below made a lot of difference to me when I was starting out with working on Corvairs as a teen back in the late 1960s. I was trying to follow the shop manual, but there was still a gap in my basic knowledge that often prevented me from really grasping what was going on. I discovered this series of books that was published by the people who published Hot Rod Magazine. I really devoured the contents of each book, and as I did, the "light" came on for me in understanding how electrical systems, carburetion and ignition systems, etc. really were supposed to function. If you are interested, these books can often be purchased used on Amazon.com, eBay, etc. for only a few dollars. If you are willing to invest some reading time, you may find them to be helpful. The book series is old, but they match the technology found in vintage Corvairs and other older classic cars.
bbodie52 wrote:Classic cars had a different way of doing things in the 1950s, 1960s and earlier, when compared to modern techniques utilizing sensors and computer technology to control fuel injection and ignition systems. There was a series of books that were published in the 1960s and 1970s that focus on basic principles of automobile design and function. These books covered basics associated with carburetors, ignition systems, suspension and brakes systems, etc. When I was a teenager I read through many of these books and they gave me a good understanding of the principles and functional designs that were common in the cars that I was interested in, including the Corvair. Once I read through these books, the shop manuals made a lot more sense to me as I began to understand how things function and what I was trying to accomplish in working on my Corvair. This series was published long ago (1960s-1970s) by Petersen Publishing Company, which was also associated with Hot Rod Magazine. With titles like Petersen's Basic Cams, Valves and Exhaust Systems, Petersen's Basic Ignition and Electrical Systems, and Petersen's Basic Carburetion and Fuel Systems, I was a teenager that found myself devouring much of the series to teach myself the basics that could be applied to most 1970s and earlier vehicles. The material in those books are now somewhat dated because of the change to computer-controlled electronic fuel injection and other sophisticated technologies that have been introduced in the subsequent decades. But I do feel a Corvair owner or any classic car owner could benefit from the material in these books. Many of them are listed as available on Amazon.com. If you would like to consider the possibility of reading through some of this material, the following link may help you to find what you're looking for. The cost of these books is low, and the investment in time that you might make in reading them may help you to develop a foundation of knowledge that will help you to leap ahead in your DIY maintenance efforts on your Corvair.

:link: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss ... pany+basic

ebay :link: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=b ... c&_sacat=0

ImageImageImageImageImage
You will find that working on the Corvair engine is a little like working on a motorcycle. You're dealing with the soft threads associated with an aluminum engine, so you will find that the use of anti-seize compound on bolt threads, screwing bolts in by hand before tightening, and making use of torque wrenches are all highly recommended. Like many motorcycles you are also dealing with an air cooled engine and an engine that utilizes older technologies and multiple carburetors. But overall working on the Corvair is fairly easy to learn as long as you follow the guidelines and instructions in the shop manuals. You also had the benefit of the Corvair Forum and many experienced Corvair owners and mechanics who can provide a great deal of support and guidance as you work on your Corvair. If you discover that you have a local CORSA (Corvair Society of America) club chapter in your area you can also benefit from joining that club chapter and socializing with local Corvair owners.
Brad Bodie
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Ron64Convertible
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

Thanks again for the good advice. I will look into some of the Petersons Basic books. I recently contacted my local chapter of Corsa and will go to my first meeting next week. :tu:
Ron64Convertible
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Re: 64 Monza Transmission issue

Post by Ron64Convertible »

My son and I pulled the engine out yesterday. We disconnected the differential and trans from the flywheel. The clutch appears to be installed correctly. However when I put the transmission into any gear and turn the input shaft the differential gears do not turn at all. The differential gears do turn freely by hand and do not show any excessive wear or damage. How does the pinion gear connect to the transmission? Any suggestions how to test for the specific problem?
Thanks,
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