Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

All Models and Years
66vairguy
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by 66vairguy »

While is seems like more work, it's actually easier to remove/install the engine AND transaxle as a unit and avoids possible damage while tying to align/bolt up engine to transaxle in the car. Plus you can start up and run an engine/transaxle unit on a cart before you install it in the car.

Oh - adjusting the valves can be done wrong SO MANY WAYS!! I've read all the "clever" ways, but the one sure fired way for someone not experienced is to simply do it with the top cover off (which you've already removed). Rotate the crank (counter clock wise at the belt pulley) until the lowest cam spot is at the lifter. Now - the lifter may or may not be full of oil. If empty then it still has a spring inside to push up, but the tension is very low so it takes a sensitive feel at the rocker/pushrod. You rotate and move the pushrod up and down until there is no play then turn down another 1/2 HOT or 3/4 - 1 turn COLD (new lifter and cam = 1 turn, used cam and lifters = 3/4 turn.

BTW - the rockers tend to seem "loose" even when there is no play due the rocker ball design. ONLY the pushrod play is important.
WinginEngineer
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by WinginEngineer »

I agree about removing the whole drivetrain. If i ever pull it again i will, but i bought it with it already removed and they only pulled the engine... and put it in the trunk of all places.

My first thought when i found the low compression was that i had over adjusted the valves, but the oil test doesn't work if the issue is in the valves. I was actually getting ready to pull the covers and redo the valve adjustment when i did the oil test just for kicks.

I went by the book, literally, down til just no movement then 3/4 turn in. To be fair though, i did it according to rocker movement rather than pushrod. I will readjust for good measure now that i know.
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
User avatar
b74eqcm
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by b74eqcm »

WinginEngineer wrote:How fast do you have to move it and how much damage will that do to the tranny?
Push start will do no harm, and may well get it started, assuming the basics are right. Are the plug wires on the cap in the right order? If you're sure you've got good spark at the right time, and the carbs are getting fuel, chokes working, I'd try a push start. As the manual says, get 'er going and shift from neutral to low with the key on. Nothing to lose.
Jim Thomas
Bethel, VT
63 Monza Coupe
WinginEngineer
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by WinginEngineer »

Timing is at 6 degrees advanced. Should be 13, but you try setting it without it running!

Firing order is right. Cap, rotor, points, coil, plugs, and wires are all new. Point gap is either 0.019" or 0.016" (whichever the book said for new points... its been a while), plug gap is whatever the book said too (0.035" i think?).

I have soot on the plugs, so there's fire of some kind, but i ain't heard it. Like i said, its only coughed the one time and it was nothing more than a cough (as in rpm sped up a little).
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
User avatar
terribleted
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:36 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by terribleted »

Yes the wrinkle band one looks like the one I have. You can load rings and pistons into the bottom of the notched cylinders using great care and often multiple tries as the ring will want to pop out into the groove and may be damaged if they do, but, it can be done.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia
Scott V
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:31 am

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by Scott V »

66vairguy wrote:If I recall correctlty the manual says you can load the pistons from the bottom of the cylinder. Works on the early models, BUT on the longer stroke engines (64 and later) the cylinders are notched at the bottom so you CAN'T load the pistons from the bottom. Oddly the 65 manual was NOT corrected and I've seen one newly rebuilt engine with a few broken rings (the rings can catch the notch during loading from the bottom).
you can load the pistons from the bottom of a 64 & later cylinders. the notch helps. dont use a ring compressor - push the ring in @ the notch - push the piston in the cylinder. do this for all 3 rings / each piston.

-Scott V.
miniman82
Posts: 1216
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Great Mills, MD
Contact:

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by miniman82 »

Marvel Mystery Oil FTW! Put some in each cylinder and see what happens, that stuff is liquid gold for freeing stuck rings.
Image
Click it!
WinginEngineer
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by WinginEngineer »

Gentlemen, the end of my rope is fast approaching.

So on the off chance I could get away without a ring job, I pulled all the plugs, soaked the cylinders in PB blaster, turned her over and over to spread it real nice, let it set for about an hour, then repeated with lucus gear oil letting it set another 20 min, then spun her good to shoot out any excess fluid (non-compressible and all), then just a dribble of 2 stroke oil to thin the mix, put the plugs back in, went to crank it and........

Dragging crank again. Same BS i had before where no matter how long i charge the battery or what i jump it with it cranks like a dead battery in a snow storm.

So after all that i can't even test it!

Wtf is going on?!?!

I'm thinking a bigger battery MAY solve this, but i don't want to spend that kind of money on a crap shoot.

I'm using a duralast gold 51R. It has 500/400.

Suggestions?
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
User avatar
terribleted
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:36 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by terribleted »

Most common cause I have seen of uneven cranking is simply due to badly retarded or advanced ignition timing. Cylinders can fire and try to essentially force the crank in the opposite direction causing a hard stop in rotation. Check that the distributor has not been moved. Does it crank fine with the plugs removed? How about with the plugs installed but ignition disconnected. Uneven cranking speed with no plugs would point to a likely nasty physical problem binding the rotating assembly like bad bearing, bent valves, very corroded cylinders perhaps. Uneven cranking speed with plugs in and no ignition on would point to valve train or valve adjustment problems (cranking against excess compression from valves not open properly)..
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia
64powerglide
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:18 pm
Location: Kalamazoo Mi..

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by 64powerglide »

Are you sure the distributor is in correctly??? Sounds like you might have it one turn off. Instead of firing on the number one plug on the compression stroke you have it trying to fire on the exhaust stroke. Check the rotor position when the timing mark is at 0, on the compression stroke it should point to the number one position on the cap which is to the left of the cap hold down screw.
Attachments
zjlimited_1983.jpg
23827_Engine_Web.jpg
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips

Kalamazoo, Mi..
WinginEngineer
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by WinginEngineer »

It spun like a top with the plugs out.

I adjusted the valves before dropping it in and if anything they are too tight, preventing closing (a legitimate concern).

If i have the distributor out 180 degrees, with the soot i show on the plugs indicating fire, would i not have some serious backfiring?
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
User avatar
terribleted
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:36 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by terribleted »

Not necessarily backfiring...not to common to get flames back out the carbs (backfire) in a Corvair...nor even exhaust explosion, but, if the timing is way off it will crank, lurch, stumble, crank when turning, will not start and will foul the plugs. Rotate engine CCW to and Verify top dead center at #1 cylinder (piston up after intake has just closed) You can do this with a compression gauge or perhaps even your finger to see when #1 is compressing as it comes up to TDC. You can also removed the R valve cover and watch during rotation for the #1 intake valve to open and then close...TDC is very shortly after the valve closes...verify by looking (or feeling...small screwdriver tip...) in the plug hole to see the piston is topped out. Pulley/balancer reference mark should be at zero (if a balancer is in use be sure the outer ring has not slipped relative to the inner hub...there is a reference scribe). Remove dist. cap and make sure #1 plug wire is in the hole aligned with the end of the rotor. The distributor will operate fine inserted in any rotation as long as the wires are correctly sequenced CW 145236, but, it actually must be installed so that the Vacuum advance unit is roughly centered between the crank pulley and the coil so there is adequate clearance for adjustment. If the distributor is poorly positioned reposition it and re-install the wires starting with the number 1 wire on the cap post that is lined up directly with the rotor. Once you are at TDC #1 and the distributor is aligned and wires properly sequenced adjust the distributor about 5-10 degrees CCW as an initial starting point (this would be 5-10 degrees Before Top Dead Center) (BTDC). Any Corvair motor (assuming other issues are not present) should start readily at this setting...final adjustments can then be done running with a timing light. Installation procedures are outlined in detail in the GM shop manual.
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia
WinginEngineer
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by WinginEngineer »

Terribleted, that's to a T what i've done... the only question would be tdc exhaust or combustion. Which the only way to verify at the time would have been to pull a valve cover, which i did not.

So 180 out is POSSIBLE, but i've never had 180 cause dead battery symptoms. I mean a corvair 6 ain't a SB 350, but suck, squeeze, pop, and blow do what they do. And when any of the order is out of order the symptoms would, i THINK, be simular regardless of configurations, sizes, asperation, or anything else.

That said, my head and the wall are becoming good friends on this car, so if there are no other suggestions before the next time i dig in i'll reorder the wires for a quick test. Worst case i lose a couple eye brows...
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
User avatar
terribleted
Posts: 4588
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:36 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by terribleted »

Simple enuf to re-check. Better to re-check this simple stuff before digging yet deeper. Would suck to pull apart valve train or heads looking for a distributor error:)
Corvair guy since 1982. I have personally restored at least 20 Vairs, many of them restored ground up.
Currently working full time repairing Corvairs and restoring old cars.
https://www.facebook.com/tedsautorestoration/

Located in Snellville, Georgia
64powerglide
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:18 pm
Location: Kalamazoo Mi..

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by 64powerglide »

Well said Ted. :goodpost: :goodpost: I would do exactly what you said before maybe making things worse. Back to square one, retime everything.
I bought my 64 110 3 years ago, the guy I bought it from delivered it on a trailer & drove it into my pole barn. I knew right away it wasn't running right. I first checked the plugs, the right bank was dead. All 3 plugs were caked closed, installed 6 new plugs & it ran even better. Then I put the timing light on it & it was at zero so I bumped it up to 14 & it ran real good. The point is, it WAS running on 3 cylinders with the timing at zero when I got it. I hope you find the timing is off & it will be an easy fix. Good luck.
64Powerglide, Jeff Phillips

Kalamazoo, Mi..
WinginEngineer
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: Rings/Jugs Installation Question...

Post by WinginEngineer »

So its not the distributor being out 180. I "adjusted" the wires and cranked it (as best it would crank) and it did as i would have thought. It started spitting and coughing back up the carbs and burping out the exhaust.

It turns out it was the battery causing the dragging (see my other thread www.corvairforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=12634).

Anyways, i was working during my lunch break, so i didn't have much time, but once it started cranking finally it was coughing, which is promising. When i have a chance to REALLY work on it i'll report back, but it seems as though ya'll were right and i may get away without doing the rings!
Kevin - Phoenix/Mesa, AZ
1962 Corvair 700
Post Reply

Return to “Ask your Mechanical Questions here”