Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

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potato124
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Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by potato124 »

Hello,

1966 Corvair Monza 110 Convertable. Before the summer it ran great and I would start it every week. I tried starting it after the summer, and it is turning over, but no ignition. Here is what I have tried so far:

-Sprayed starter spray in the air intake, fired a few times, but then nothing
-took off the air filter, sprayed in both sides, again some firing, but then just turning over
-Tried the above again with the gas cap off
-Fuel gage is showing 1/4 of a tank

Car ran great beforehand, so I would assume that it is purely a problem with getting gas to the carb. Any suggestions?

Thanks!!!
cnicol
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by cnicol »

1) I wonder if your car's points got tarnished or maybe the condenser died during its sleep. Did you check for consistent spark?
2) Are your getting a "squirt" in the carburetor throats when you stroke the throttle? If not, you might want to loosen the fuel pump lock-bolt and do CPR on the pump until the carburetors are filled. If you do that (you'll be able to hear the fuel going in) and still no squirt; ethanol-laced fuel probably took out the accelerator pumps.

Since it didn't really run on starting fluid, I'm betting on #1
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potato124
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by potato124 »

Cnicol, thanks!

1. Points - I can sand down, but when it would try to start (with the starter fluid) I would hear some combustion, so can I assume the plugs are getting a spark?
Condenser - how do I check this or repair this?

2. I can't see into the carbs because I haven't removed the air intake manafold. Should I disconnect and look into the carbs directly? This is my first "old" car, so I am still learning about the different parts and pieces.
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by bbodie52 »

:think: :doh: 3-Months? Stale fuel is a possibility. The referenced article below is targeting seasonal yard vehicles that typically sit for months between uses, but the Corvair often falls into this category. After trying to start your Corvair with potentially bad fuel, you have already pumped your fuel system and carburetors full of questionable fuel. If you never treated the fuel in your tank with a fuel stabilizer like STA-BIL before you let your car sit for many months — especially if the fuel was an ethanol blend — you may be in for some work to drain/refresh the fuel in the gas tank, and possibly flush the bad fuel from your carburetors before you successfully start your engine. Certainly you should check your spark plugs to see if the are wet or fouled, and you should inspect your ignition system for proper settings and operation. But if the carburetors check out with full float bowls (opening the throttle while staring down the carburetor throats to see if you observe a squirt of fuel being injected by each accelerator pump) and if the ignition system checks out good, you may be expecting your engine to start with bad fuel.
[attachment=0]Carburetor Accelerator Pump Action.jpg[/attachment]


What You Can Do to Avoid & Treat Bad Fuel

:link: http://blog.briggsandstratton.com/stale ... -bad-fuel/
Oxidation and Bad Fuel

Specifically, stale gasoline or bad fuel is fuel that has oxidized. Gasoline can begin to degrade and oxidize 30 days after its pumped. During oxidation, fuel molecules become less stable. As fuel oxidizes it can turn to gum and clog jets and other openings in the fuel system, leading to non-starting or poor running conditions. Gummed up carburetors cause serious problems in power equipment that sees intermittent use or long periods of storage, such as your snow throwers and lawn mowers. If you store quality gasoline properly, that is in an airtight container at a stable cool temperature, it should stay stable indefinitely. But unfortunately, the gas tank of your lawn mower isn’t considered an ideal place for storing gas and it can become stale in your tank over time.

Ethanol-blended Fuel

About 90-percent of the fuel sold in the United States contains ethanol, usually designated as E10 at the pump. Ethanol-blended fuel is a corrosive substance and can cause the gradual destruction of the metal used in the fuel systems of outdoor power equipment. Corrosion in the fuel system can come from two areas – water and the fuel itself. Ethanol-blended fuel is especially corrosive to soft metals found in fuel systems such as brass and aluminum. Ethanol also absorbs water, drawing it into the fuel mixture. Water is highly corrosive to a fuel system and, when ethanol and water combine, it can cause performance problems and fuel system damage.
More articles on this subject...

:google: :link: https://www.google.com/#q=stale+fuel

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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by GriffinGuru »

All of the above. I just wanted to add that you should be carful with using too much starter fluid if it is ether based. There are many stories around of people grenading an engine after copious amounts of ether sprayed into a carb that finally ignites with a great bang!

I have been close to doing the same thing trying to start a car with a WHOLE LOT of ether spray! Luckily someone saw what I was doing and stopped me before I fired it up. We disconnected the coil and cranked it over to work the ether out of the system and the car actually ignited a few strokes with the ether from compression alone! Amazing stuff that ether is but be careful and use sparingly. I prefer to use the flammable petroleum based carb cleaner as a starting fluid (not dichloromethane based which is not combustible). You can spray much more carb cleaner in an intake as not have to worry about a big bang, as it is a little less potent than gasoline, but still good enough to start a car.
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by 66vairguy »

Long before "modern" ethanol gasoline I had trouble with cars that sat for months. The carburetors dry up and sometimes the fuel pump just can't get primed. BTW - NEVER PUT FUEL IN A CARBURETOR AND START THE CAR UNLESS THE AIR CLEANER IS BACK IN PLACE!!!! A buddy set himself on fire trying to start a car by pouring fuel down a carburetor while the engine was being turned over.

DO NOT USE STARTER FLUID - It's main purpose is to start an engine in sub zero temperatures when gasoline (especially with alcohol) does not want to fire. In warmer temperatures with no additional gasoline in the mix it can crack a piston.

If you are going to let the car sit for months I would add an electric fuel pump by the tank. Most are pull through so you can use it to prime the fuel pump and fill the carburetors and then turn it off when the car starts and run on the mechanical pump.

Or do what I did and eliminate the mechanical fuel pump. Now after the cars sits just two weeks my carburetors are dry (fuels without lead are more volatile to get the octane up and evaporate very easily). I got tired of cranking the engine for sometime to get fuel into the carburetors, and it's hard on the starter and battery. Now I wait a second after electric fuel pump is running and then the car starts immediately.

If a car is going to sit for more than a month, then use Sta-Bil and fill the tank up to keep condensation to a minimum.
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by potato124 »

cnicol wrote:1) I wonder if your car's points got tarnished or maybe the condenser died during its sleep. Did you check for consistent spark?
2) Are your getting a "squirt" in the carburetor throats when you stroke the throttle? If not, you might want to loosen the fuel pump lock-bolt and do CPR on the pump until the carburetors are filled. If you do that (you'll be able to hear the fuel going in) and still no squirt; ethanol-laced fuel probably took out the accelerator pumps.

Since it didn't really run on starting fluid, I'm betting on #1

How do I perform CPR on the fuel pump?
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by bbodie52 »

Potato124 wrote:How do I perform CPR on the fuel pump?
cnicol wrote:Are your getting a "squirt" in the carburetor throats when you stroke the throttle? If not, you might want to loosen the fuel pump lock-bolt and do CPR on the pump until the carburetors are filled. If you do that (you'll be able to hear the fuel going in) and still no squirt; ethanol-laced fuel probably took out the accelerator pumps.
I have never tried the "CPR" technique with a Corvair fuel pump. I'm assuming that it means taking advantage of a static push rod at its highest point, and then moving the loosened fuel pump up and down to manually pump it. I'm not sure how effective this is, when comparing it to just cranking the engine with the starter to try to draw fuel from the tank and fill the float bowls. It would only make sense if you are certain that the carburetor float bowls remain empty after copious cranking efforts to try to draw fuel from the tank. But how would manual pumping (CPR) be more effective?

Note that the mechanical fuel pump must create a vacuum in that lengthy fuel line between the fuel tank and the mechanical fuel pump to prime itself and move fuel on to the carburetors. If the carburetors remain dry and there is no sign of fuel coming out of the pump, it is possible that a cracked hose or fuel line leak has developed between the fuel tank outlet and the fuel pump inlet. If this happens a vacuum will never form, and the fuel pump will just remain thirsty! If this occurs you must carefully inspect the fuel feed line from the tank for leaks. (Start with the short rubber hoses at the fuel tank outlet and at the connecting hose between the rigid steel line and the steel line where it enters the engine compartment — near the starter.
Fuel Feed Line.jpg
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1965 Corvair Assembly Manual - FUEL TANK.pdf
1965 Corvair Assembly Manual - FUEL TANK
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by potato124 »

OK, so I have inspected the lines, and don't see any leaks or issues. Would it be possible to disconnect the fuel line from the fuel pump and check the fuel there? If it isn't there, then maybe syphon some up to that point, and the reconnect to the fuel pump?
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by toytron »

Added to the lengthy run, if you haven't replaced the float or siphon tube sock it could be clogged.

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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by 64powerglide »

Sounds like the needle valves in the carbs dried out & they are stuck closed. Try disconnecting the lines at the carbs & spray carb cleaner into the carbs where the lines connect. If you have a compressor try blowing air in after the carb cleaner sets a while. The low pressure pump the Corvair's have probably isn't enough to open the needle valves. You can also crank it over to see if you are getting fuel to the carbs, pull the coil wire before cranking & have someone hold a container to catch any fuel if it comes out. :my02:
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by bbodie52 »

You haven't yet confirmed whether or not fuel is present in the carburetors. You could also disconnect a fuel line between the pump and the carburetor, and redirect it into a small container while cranking the engine (don't use a Styrofoam cup — they disintegrate if filled with gasoline!)

Page 6M-26 in the attached section of the Corvair Shop Manual describes how to test the fuel pump. It should flow a volume of 1 pint in 40 seconds and should produce pressure of 4-5 psi. It is possible to have adequate fuel pressure output but not enough volume if the feed line is leaking air and preventing adequate vacuum to draw fuel from the tank. Leaks won't be obvious, because no fuel may be observed from a cracked hose. The line from the tank is not under pressure so fuel may not be obvious to indicate a leak. Also, as mentioned before the fuel inlet filter inside the tank can also be obstructed. But even if fuel delivery to the carburetors is not a problem, the delivery of stale fuel could be the cause of your starting problem. If a good spark is being generated at each spark plug, and if the carburetors are delivering a fuel/air mixture to the combustion chamber, stale, oxidized or otherwised contaminated fuel may be the issue.
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by cnicol »

Bblodie 52 wrote:
I have never tried the "CPR" technique with a Corvair fuel pump. I'm assuming that it means taking advantage of a static push rod at its highest point, and then moving the loosened fuel pump up and down to manually pump it. I'm not sure how effective this is, when comparing it to just cranking the engine with the starter to try to draw fuel from the tank and fill the float bowls.
Craig replies:
I can assure you this method is easy and VERY effective. Instead of grinding and grinding the starter and depleting the battery, you simply loosen the lock-bolt and push on the fuel pump manually. It is not necessary to set the fuel pump push rod in any particular orientation; it's always high enough for "CPR".
Secondary advantages are the ability to hear the fuel entering the carburetors and if there's a sticky float that leads to an overflow, you know right away before tons of fuel enters the engine. I've done this process hundreds of times over the years and it's one way to quickly get an engine going after carburetor service or running out of fuel.
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by potato124 »

I syphoned fuel up to the fuel pump, and loosened the fuel pump and can do CPR on it. However I noted that their was no fuel coming to the carbs from one of the lines, it was bone dry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vM8Y0q ... e=youtu.be



When I syphoned the fuel, it took a while to get to the fuel pump, so there may be a leak. I am thinking that the issues could be:
1. leak in the line to the fuel pump, causing loss of suction
2. Fuel pump clog / malfunction
3. Lack of fuel in carbs, causing the system not to prime

Any suggestions???
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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by bbodie52 »



The fuel pump outlet has a TEE fitting, but you indicate you have no fuel output from the pump. Still not certain that fuel is entering the pump from the inlet (no vacuum?). The pump itself could be defective, but you should confirm the quality of the fuel feed to the pump before you assume that the pump is bad.

The carburetors do not have to have fuel in them to prime the pump. But an intact feed line must be OK to create a vacuum to draw fuel from the tank.

Perhaps you could try running a few feet of rubber fuel line from a gas can filled with fresh fuel, and use a correct fitting to connect it directly to the fuel pump inlet — or connect the new fuel hose from the temporary gas can to the steel line at the point near the starter — substituting this configuration for the gas tank and the long run from the tank to the engine compartment. Try CPR. If you are successful, you could reconnect the carburetors and attempt to start the engine using a gas can and fuel line to feed the pump — just be sure the gas can is a safe distance from the engine and any possible point of ignition! :angry:

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Re: Won't start after sitting for 3 months...

Post by potato124 »

SUCCESS!!!!! BUT THEN>>>>>>> IT DIED!

So, after reading everyone's suggestions, here is what I did:
-removed the fuel pump, checked that the spring action was working (I could hear the pump pushing air, so it seemed to be working)...then reinstalled
-syphoned the fuel line up to the fuel pump
-removed the air intake manifold, sprayed carb cleaner directly in the flappers for 2-3 seconds each
-IT STARTED!!!!


I let it run for 5 minutes, and seemed to be ok. Cut it off, then replaced the air filters. I then started again (it took a second) and I then pulled it to the end of the driveway (20 feet), and it stalled. I tried starting it again, and had the same problem!

Waited 30 minutes, went out again. This time it wouldn't start immediately, so I removed only the air filter and cover, sprayed some carb cleaner in, and it started up again...when i put the air filter and cover back on, it idled rough and then died and would not start.

I think this all points to the fact that the supply of gas is not in a vacuum. If there are small leaks in the tubing, then when it is running and drawing gas, I can get air in there and causes it to idle rough. I am thinking that I should inspect and replace the parts of the gas line that may be succepable to leaking.

The rough idling also seems to remind me of how it used to run before the summer. It would run great for a week, but sometimes it would idle rough. I always thought it may have been a bad batch of gas, but now I am thinking it is an intermitent air leak into the supply line that has gotten worse over time.

Any recommendations of how to get the tubing replacement parts? Is this a basic item I can get at the auto parts store?
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