Charging, Starting, and Ignition... or not

[WinginEngineer]

So my trunk find motor is assembled and in the car. I cracked it open and the thing looked like a piece of jewelry, so I buttoned it up and dropped it in. The bins from my basket case engine had a starter and generator in them that I went ahead and used. They looked crudy, but i figured it was worth a shot. There was also a decent looking battery that read 12v, so i dropped it in.

First attempt to start the engine cranked maybe 90 degrees, nice and slow. Battery was dropping to 6v, so i got a new one.

Next atempt it was cranking, but about as fast as i could do by hand. So i pulled the starter out and the brushes were toast. I switched the hot and ground brushes to try and improve it "enough". No difference. So i ordered a rebuilt starter from CA corvairs.

I put the "new" starter in and went to crank... got one bump followed by billowing smoke. Stopped cranking and i'll be darned, it kept smoking. I had to pull the battery cables to make it stop. They were quite warm. Tried again after everything cooled down and i got a bump followed by buzzing after realease and again i had to pull the cables to make it stop.

I pulled the starter and cracked it open to find everything inside cooked. I took the new brushes and put them in the old starter.

It cranks now, but its still dragging like a dead battery even when jump starting both with a jump starter and a car.

So WTF with starting/charging??

Also this entire time it has never even coughed, and i am gassing through the carbs. I pulled #1 plug and it has a really weak spark. I checked the coil and only have 7 volts going in. So i hot wired it and still nothing.

I'm at a total loss. I'm open to suggestions.

[bbodie52]

it is difficult to troubleshoot effectively over the Internet — given only the limited amount of information you provided, which generally produces more questions that cannot be immediately answered. When you purchased a rebuilt starter did you replace the solenoid at the same time? Or did you simply transfer the old solenoid from the defective starter to the rebuilt starter? There is the possibility that the old solenoid was also faulty, and transferring it to the rebuilt starter could carry an original fault along with it. But even a faulty solenoid would generally not cause the burned out condition you described in your rebuilt starter. So I would have to assume that the rebuilt starter was defective when you received it.

You should contact your vendor and describe the problem we ran into with the starter they provided to you. They will likely wish to send you a replacement. I don't know if they will want the defective starter back. You may want to combine the replacement starter with a new solenoid as well.

Is the heavy ground cable from the battery connected to both the car chassis and to the engine? It is essential that the negative cable be bolted directly to the engine to provide an adequate ground return from the starter to the battery. If the ground connection is only made between the battery negative terminal and the car chassis, the engine will be improperly grounded due to the electrical isolation provided by the three rubber engine mounts.

Your ignition coil would generally receive approximately 7 VDC via the resistor wire in the wiring harness. That voltage feed to the ignition coil positive terminal is boosted when the starter solenoid is engaged. If you look at the wiring schematic below you will see that the resistor wire portion connects to another wire that comes from the starter solenoid. When the solenoid engages and sends a high current to the starter motor, it also provides a voltage boost to the ignition coil to provide a "hotter" spark while the engine is being cranked. You should check your wiring to confirm the existence of this secondary path to the coil from the starter solenoid.

Another issue that may impact your Corvair...

A generator is unique in that the system should be polarized whenever it has been disconnected. This procedure is not needed when using an alternator. It is certainly possible that a generator-based charging system will be properly polarized at random when it is reconnected, but using the information and procedure described below ensures proper polarization of the system when it could be functioning incorrectly after being disconnected. This is a unique characteristic to generator-based charging systems that you may want to consider, as described below...

Whenever the battery is disconnected from the vehicle for any reason the polarization procedure should be performed.

The recommendation on how to polarize a charging system is the following: After the installation of a battery, generator or voltage regulator follow these procedures. The terminals on the voltage regulator are labeled with letters and this is where you will do the polarizing procedure. Both of the components will have battery power so do not start the vehicle or turn on the ignition switch before polarizing them. You will need a small piece of wire fourteen or sixteen gauge with alligator clips on the ends. Find the "Batt" terminal on the regulator and attach one of the alligator clips, find the "Armature" terminal and touch the terminal with the other alligator clip. You can touch the terminals a few times and it will produce a soft light spark.

Under no circumstances touch the "Field" terminal or any other part of the regulator or you could damage the regulator.

[WinginEngineer]

Where does that diagram come from? The one i'm using (from the manual) is crap.

The starter came complete, new solenoid and all.

I ask about the diagram because the ONLY wire going to my coil is the one from the starter. I have tried desperately to match my wiring to the diagrams I have, but like I said, they're crap.

I have been polarizing each and every time the battery has been disconnected. My Batt terminal looks a BBQ at this point.

[bbodie52]

The schematic is from the 1962-1963 Supplement - Chevrolet Corvair Shop Manual - Section 8 - Electrical Systems. If you are talking about the wiring diagrams found in the 1961 Shop Manual, you are right — they are crap! I always thought that the 1961 diagrams looked like some kind of early developmental drawings that found their way into the published 1961 Shop Manual because of time constraints. By 1962 the schematics had been redrawn and from that point on those found in the Shop Manual Supplements and in the 1965 Chassis Shop Manual were all done to the new, improved drawing model standard.

If you look closely, you will see that in 1962 a separate wire is shown from the starter solenoid, and a different wire is shown from the ballast resistor wire. Both wires meet at the positive terminal of the coil. When the solenoid is energized during startup, 12 VDC is applied to the coil from the solenoid. When the key is released, the voltage from the solenoid is discontinued, leaving only the nominal 7 VDC from the resistor wire. (The lower voltage was deemed sufficient for normal engine operation, and helps to prolong the life of the ignition point contacts and also helps the coil to run somewhat cooler).

In 1963 and later Corvairs, the splice between the two wires takes place at the two-wire pigtail plastic connector near the starter. This accomplishes the same circuit but requires only a single wire from the 2-wire connector to the ignition coil positive terminal.

Left-click each diagram with your mouse to enlarge for better viewing...

1962 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring Diagram

1963 Corvair Engine Compartment Wiring

1963 Ignition Wiring Diagram

I have attached copies of the 1962-63 and 1964 supplement sections for your use. All of these shop manuals , supplements, and many other useful documents can be downloaded for free in Adobe Reader (.pdf) format using the following link...

Common and Useful Corvair Websites
viewtopic.php?f=225&t=6007

[WinginEngineer]

One thing the diagrams do not show is capacitors. They're everywhere. On on the regulator, one on the generator, and one bolted to the coil but not hooked up. Are all those supposed to be there and if so where do i hook up the one on the coil?

[terribleted]

Those caps are for radio noise suppression and are of no bearing on your issues.

[WinginEngineer]

Well at least now i know. You have been very helpful. I will go back to picking apart my wiring with the new diagrams.

But back to main issue of the dragging, slow cranking...

Is there anything electrical that could cause weak cranking other than battery and starter? Its got a new battery and new brushes on an old starter that has a good gear and working solonoid with clean mechanical function.

I was turning the engine by hand before i put it in and primed the oil system before cranking. I also had very little struggle rotating the brand new torque converter for the flex plate bolts, so i doubt highly its a mechanical issue.

[bbodie52]

If the engine has no mechanical issues that would cause the cranking speed to be slow, and you have replaced the battery, starter and the solenoid but found no improvement, I would guess that a high resistance in the starter motor electrical circuit has reduced its current-carrying capacity — slowing the motor and cranking speed. I mentioned the negative cable earlier, as it must be "daisy chained" — connecting both the engine AND the car chassis to the battery negative terminal. Also, you should check the condition and gauge of both the positive and negative cables, and the condition of the end terminals to ensure that they are clean. Any breakdown in the cable or carbon/dirt/corrosion buildup on the battery terminal connectors could be a point of high resistance — potentially causing a heat buildup or poor current-carrying capacity, which could starve the starter motor for adequate electrical current from the battery and cause slow engine cranking rotation. If you are using the old starter motor with new brushes, it may still be faulty.

[gnrand]

Would it be possible to bypass the wiring to the starter and as a test just hook up the battery (positive and neg) directly to the starter and then jump the selenoid to see if it cranks any faster.
Jeff

[WinginEngineer]

The ground goes to the rear generator bracket per the diagrams i have. The PO painted the engine accessories without masking though, so the paint on the bracket and bell housing may be an issue. The pos batt cable has a splice and isn't in great shape either. I will address those two issues while i double check the wiring and report back.

[bbodie52]

I remember discovering in 1971 how much impact a dirty battery cable connector and/or battery terminal could have on an automobile starter. I was working in a Mobil gas station and was called out to jumpstart a stranded motorist in a shopping center parking lot. I looked under the hood and asked the owner to try starting the engine. When she did the starter engaged and cranked very slowly. I also noticed a wisp of smoke emanating from the positive battery terminal. I grasped the battery terminal connector and twisted it on the battery post. I then had the motorist attempt to start her car again and it started right up! In this case the positive battery terminal connector appeared to be securely attached to the battery post, but it was just loose enough to allow me to twist and rotate the connector on the battery post by hand. The dirty terminal and somewhat loose connection had apparently allowed an arc to form within the battery connection, and the resulting carbon deposit had added even more resistance to the electrical connection. That was enough to prevent the high current flow necessary to support the starter motor. I finished the job by removing both battery connectors and thoroughly cleaning the posts and the inside of the connectors with an appropriate tool. I reconnected and tightened the battery terminals in the motorist was good to go!



If you have dirty contacts, battery cables in a degraded condition, or paint on the cable end that is attached to the engine, any of these are potential trouble areas. Cleaning and/or replacing faulty or degraded cables may very well clear up your problem.

[WinginEngineer]

I opperate a little slow sometimes, but i always get there eventually.

I replaced both battery cables, stripped the paint off the contact areas of the generator bracket, and to avoid seperating the bellhousing i ran an aux ground from the starter chassis to the generator bracket.

I also checked my wiring, which matches the '63 supplement even though its a '62.

I now have full speed cranking and great voltages everywhere.

I replaced the points and set the gap, triple checked the rotor position (wound up giving it a tooth), checked my spark (good and fat), manually primed the fuel pump, and manually preset the timing to approx 6 deg advanced (should be 13, but that's close enough for a start), and after some cranking now have good fuel delivery.

Still wouldn't cough, even with starting fluid. Pulled the #1 plug and it had soot on it... so out with plugs and start the compression test.

#1 has 60 psi, #2 is at 90. I stopped there for now because i at least know where to look now. It was the end of the day and i was tired.

So now i gotta do a full compression test and determine if its rings or valves, then fix appropriately. My money is on valve seats (unfortunately), but i shall report again when i know more.

But i have soot! And that means fire! I didn't have that before!